Ethical Concerns Regarding Heritage?

[Snapolit1]

Bob - that makes a lot of sense. My wife and I bought our first home in a neighborhood that charged a premium for homes for a number of reasons, most prominently the reputation of the public schools. After our kids were well into the public school system we realized that the schools were nowhere near what people sold them as. In fact they they were downright lousy in a lot of ways. But none of our friends would hear it. Even people who knew what we were saying was true, basically said "hey it doesn't help any of our property values to say anything disparaging about the schools . . . . It's the perception of the schools that benefits all of us." And nothing ever changed. Sort of like what you are saying here.

Originally Posted by BobC

A lot of this has to do with the fact that there are all different types on this forum, dealers, AHs, speculators, investors, and varying levels of collectors who range from being collectors who are at the same time all of the aforementioned as well, to just being truly pure collectors who are into the hobby for the simple joy of collecting and to whom the money and value are secondary, if even that high on their priority lists. I believe most of us on here would like to think of ourselves as the true collectors and not think and care so much about the money and value side. But the sad truth is that for many, the rise in card prices (and thus the value of their collections, especially vintage) are such that most collectors can't ignore the economic factor, and as a result find themselves thinking more like dealers, AHs, investors, and speculators on occasion when it comes to their beloved hobby, than as true collectors. And as a consequence, they also develop a sort of unintended acceptance of things in the hobby as they are. For even if deep down they may not entirely agree with things being done and said by certain groups and individuals, I think many collectors may also harbor a subliminal or latent fear that by speaking out against those groups and individuals in the hobby they may somehow do damage that results in economic harm to them and the value of their personal collections.

Think of someone who has a large collection of cards graded by the top accepted TPGs of today. Now think about would happen to the value of that collection were the TPGs to be discredited, and even be found guilty of criminal activity, say in conjunction with certain dealers, AHs, card doctors, and so on. That may be part of why many may seem to publicly just appear to follow the crowd. And also, with all the speculation and innuendos of less than exemplary and honest dealings by many individuals and groups within our hobby, collectors will also tend to try to identify and rally round those they may feel are not really part of its' seedy side. So many collectors may just go along with these perceived "good guys" so as to have hope that our hobby is not entirely doomed. If it ever finally came out and was proved that virtually all the major players (dealers, AHs, TPGs) were in some ways in cahoots with one another in deceiving and defrauding our entire collecting community, that could break our hobby's back, so to speak, and end up having the card collecting hobby/industry looking like the stock market crash back in 1929. Maybe a somewhat convoluted theory, but still a possible factor why many in the crowd may just always seem to go along with others in regards to thoughts and opinions, in many cases.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Bob - that makes a lot of sense. My wife and I bought our first home in a neighborhood that charged a premium for homes for a number of reasons, most prominently the reputation of the public schools. After our kids were well into the public school system we realized that the schools were nowhere near what people sold them as. In fact they they were downright lousy in a lot of ways. But none of our friends would hear it. Even people who knew what we were saying was true, basically said "hey it doesn't help any of our property values to say anything disparaging about the schools . . . . It's the perception of the schools that benefits all of us." And nothing ever changed. Sort of like what you are saying here.

Exactly why I mentioned it, because it is a typical human trait to not want to rock the boat. Just look back at that survey/poll thread asking everyone their age. The top of that bell curve is late 40s-early 50s on here. So most of the members are older and been collecting for awhile. Which means likely most of us have been collecting long before the card prices surged recently, and for probably a lot of us, before prices increased over the last decade or two, and even farther back than that for a few others. Which means a majority of us long time collectors are sitting on a lot of appreciated value in our card/memorabilia collections. And even if when we started our collecting we didn't really care about the value of our cards that much, it is impossible to ignore how valuable many of our collections have become. And with maybe only an extremely rare exception or two, no one will want to see all that value suddenly just go away.

If worst comes to worst and a catastrophe or illness befalls some collector or their family, trust me, there is an additional level of comfort in the back of their minds because now they know they can sell their collections, if they absolutely have to, for more than they ever thought. Even though they may have never started their collections with the intent of it being an investment, that is what most of these old collections have become. And no one is voluntarily going to want to give up that additional peace of mind these appreciated collections have brought them. It is found money, like taking a pair of jeans out of the dryer and finding a $20 bill in the pocket you didn't know you had. So there may be that kind of thinking in the back of a lot of people's minds as to why they may look like they all just agree on a lot of hobby related things. They subconsciously don't really want to say or do anything to truly hurt the hobby and their "found" money. It is simple human nature to want to be as financially safe and secure as possible.

Basically the same thing Steve as in your example with the school district you're in, and the home values.

[Exhibitman]

We've had this same sort of behavior in the past. Think 1980, 1989-94, etc. Remember people 'day trading' stack of 100 Upper Deck RCs and calling us vintage guys a bunch of backwards-looking luddites? Or when PSA was starting up and made up the prices in the SMR while advertising it as truth (see my article in VCBC exposing it) or graded Mastro's Frankencard Wagner (read "The Card"). A bedrock of fraud and deception underlays most of this hobby. The difference I see between then and now is that organized money is coming into this. This is not just a pack of social influencing assclowns pumping and dumping some basketball cards, this is a well-organized, well-funded pack of assclowns reorganizing the entire hobby to maximize their rake at every level from card acquisition to graded card disposition. The 'dump' will come when they take these companies public again. Until that point, the 'market' is going to go up, led by PSA and Goldin and the money men like the ones at Blackstone who bought out Certified Collectibles Group. Or to quote one of their idols:

Gordon Gekko: ...what I do, stock and real estate speculation. It's bullshit. ... I create nothing. I own. We make the rules, pal. The news, war, peace, famine, upheaval, the price per paper clip. We pick that rabbit out of the hat while everybody sits out there wondering how the hell we did it.

[SAllen2556]

I read these threads about fraud and I always come back to the same thought: The collectibles industry - whether it’s sports cards or video games - is an industry that runs on anarchy. There is no governing body. You can use the term laissez faire but that implies self-regulation. This forum constitutes the closest attempt at a regulatory body, and to its credit, in my opinion, has made a difference at times in pointing out fraud and abuse. But has it made a significant difference? From all the blatant fraud pointed out on the Blowout forum, has anyone suffered any penalty for their fraudulent behavior?

There are basically no enforceable laws regulating the industry. There is no licensing or education requirement to participate in the industry. Anyone can call themselves a sports card dealer; anyone can open an auction house; and anyone can start their own grading company. The enticements for bad behavior have always far outweighed the penalties. What percent of criminals in this industry are ever actually caught and punished? I bet it’s way fewer than 1%.

I’ve often wondered why there isn’t some sort of national board of sports card dealers and/or auction houses who could at least attempt to self-govern the industry a bit. If there was more confidence in the industry wouldn't everyone make more money? The obvious answer is that dealers and auction houses do not see it in their best interests to self-regulate. So, let the anarchy continue!

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

We've had this same sort of behavior in the past. Think 1980, 1989-94, etc. Remember people 'day trading' stack of 100 Upper Deck RCs and calling us vintage guys a bunch of backwards-looking luddites? Or when PSA was starting up and made up the prices in the SMR while advertising it as truth (see my article in VCBC exposing it) or graded Mastro's Frankencard Wagner (read "The Card"). A bedrock of fraud and deception underlays most of this hobby. The difference I see between then and now is that organized money is coming into this. This is not just a pack of social influencing assclowns pumping and dumping some basketball cards, this is a well-organized, well-funded pack of assclowns reorganizing the entire hobby to maximize their rake at every level from card acquisition to graded card disposition. The 'dump' will come when they take these companies public again. Until that point, the 'market' is going to go up, led by PSA and Goldin and the money men like the ones at Blackstone who bought out Certified Collectibles Group. Or to quote one of their idols:

Gordon Gekko: ...what I do, stock and real estate speculation. It's bullshit. ... I create nothing. I own. We make the rules, pal. The news, war, peace, famine, upheaval, the price per paper clip. We pick that rabbit out of the hat while everybody sits out there wondering how the hell we did it.

Spot On Adam

[MattyC]

Amen. The conflicts of interest surrounding the unholy alliance of PSA, Goldin, Wata… it’s a joke. And the cadre behind it will laugh all the way to the bank. We’re just the grist in their profit mill.

[Fred]

Ostrich UP when it comes to hobby fraud!

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[Johnny630]

I don’t hate on them I just adjust. A lot of money was out there to be made on some of my collection so I sold and did very very well, I don’t regret it one min. I’ve moved on with more money in my pocket then I could have ever thought.
I still have plenty and I’m very happy with riding it out and being patient.