PWCC Boggles the Mind. New Auctions

cgjackson222 · #1 12-23-2021, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

we charge sales tax in PA and unfortunately will be adding states next year.

So I know the tax code changed a couple of years ago for internet sales, which leads to more sales tax collected.
But I am confused as to why a lot of the larger AHs charge sales tax in more states than some of the smaller ones that only charge in the state they are located and maybe a few others.

Does it have to do with volume of sales to each state or something?

Peter_Spaeth · #2 12-23-2021, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

So I know the tax code changed a couple of years ago for internet sales, which leads to more sales tax collected.
But I am confused as to why a lot of the larger AHs charge sales tax in more states than some of the smaller ones that only charge in the state they are located and maybe a few others.

Does it have to do with volume of sales to each state or something?

As I understand it doing a certain volume in a state can require a seller to collect tax for that state on sales to its residents. Massachusetts works that way, I know. I forget the threshold now but it ain't that high.

Sterling Sports Auctions · #3 12-23-2021, 09:18 PM

For those that think they are paying more by having a buyer premium. All VCP prices include the buyers premium (final bid price + buyer premium), the Ebay prices are the final bid price. So the record prices you hear about are the final price the buyers pay.

Ebay is not a normal auction service they created there own format that many are use to (by the you are doing your own work and have to deal with customers on ebay and pay them. What is your time worth and the potential headaches?) and have never used an Auction service for any buying or selling.

As an auction service Sterling is providing a service to help make the selling process easier for consignors and the best possible experience for the bidders.

Always willing to listen to any suggestions,

Lee

BobC · #4 12-24-2021, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sterling Sports Auctions

For those that think they are paying more by having a buyer premium. All VCP prices include the buyers premium (final bid price + buyer premium), the Ebay prices are the final bid price. So the record prices you hear about are the final price the buyers pay.

Ebay is not a normal auction service they created there own format that many are use to (by the you are doing your own work and have to deal with customers on ebay and pay them. What is your time worth and the potential headaches?) and have never used an Auction service for any buying or selling.

As an auction service Sterling is providing a service to help make the selling process easier for consignors and the best possible experience for the bidders.

Always willing to listen to any suggestions,

Lee

As Lee said, Ebay is an auction platform and not an AH/seller themselves. AHs like Lee's Sterling Sports Auctions generally pay some third party to use their software platform to put their auctions on, and pay these third-party auction platforms out of the seller's and/or buyer's premiums they collect.

When Ebay was originally started, it was for people to come on and directly sell items themselves. I don't believe it was originally contemplated that one day large consignors would be selling things on Ebay on behalf of many others like happens nowadays with a seller like Probstein. Someone coming on Ebay to maybe sell a few items a year, like in a garage sale, wouldn't be paying for a software auction platform like a Simply Auctions platform that some AHs use. And that is most likely why Ebay set up their software to charge users a seller's fee, based on a set percentage of each individual sale. Which was fairly easy to do since Ebay also handled the collection and dispersion of monies to sellers. Auction software/platforms used by AHs, like Simply Auctions, don't collect and ever handle the money from buyers, which is another huge difference from Ebay.

BobC · #5 12-23-2021, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

So I know the tax code changed a couple of years ago for internet sales, which leads to more sales tax collected.
But I am confused as to why a lot of the larger AHs charge sales tax in more states than some of the smaller ones that only charge in the state they are located and maybe a few others.

Does it have to do with volume of sales to each state or something?

Yes, in 2018 the SCOTUS upheld South Dakota against Wayfair and determined that a seller no longer had to have a physical presence (inventory, employees, store, etc.) before SD could legally force that seller to collect and remit sales taxes on sales to customers in SD. The SCOTUS agreed with SD's threshold for out-of-state sellers to have to start collecting SD sales tax once they reached $100,000 of gross taxable sales in a single calendar year, or had 200 or more taxable sales transactions to SD customers, also in a single calendar year. Once that happened, other states with sales taxes started changing their sales tax laws to be more in line with what the SCOTUS approved in SD.

So of course, larger AHs and sellers will more easily reach whatever the revised annual sales and/or transaction thresholds are in all those other states (and SD) than will smaller AHs and sellers that don't have as much sales or transaction volume.

So all these AHs and sellers now have to keep track of their gross taxable sales and the number of sales transactions they have each year on a state by state basis, so they can tell when they might finally reach and go over a particular state's sales tax thresholds. And once they've crossed over one of a particular state's thresholds, generally they are then legally required to register with whatever group or department oversees sales taxes in that particular state, and to then start charging, collecting, and remitting sales taxes on all taxable sales to customers in that particular state going forward. And once a seller/AH has to start collecting sales tax in a particular state, they don't generally get to stop being liable for collecting it in subsequent years should their gross taxable sales and transaction volume fall below the thresholds.

The smaller AHs and sellers are always going to be required to collect sales taxes in states they are located in because they have an actual physical presence in those states.

cgjackson222 · #6 12-24-2021, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Yes, in 2018 the SCOTUS upheld South Dakota against Wayfair and determined that a seller no longer had to have a physical presence (inventory, employees, store, etc.) before SD could legally force that seller to collect and remit sales taxes on sales to customers in SD. The SCOTUS agreed with SD's threshold for out-of-state sellers to have to start collecting SD sales tax once they reached $100,000 of gross taxable sales in a single calendar year, or had 200 or more taxable sales transactions to SD customers, also in a single calendar year. Once that happened, other states with sales taxes started changing their sales tax laws to be more in line with what the SCOTUS approved in SD.

So of course, larger AHs and sellers will more easily reach whatever the revised annual sales and/or transaction thresholds are in all those other states (and SD) than will smaller AHs and sellers that don't have as much sales or transaction volume.

So all these AHs and sellers now have to keep track of their gross taxable sales and the number of sales transactions they have each year on a state by state basis, so they can tell when they might finally reach and go over a particular state's sales tax thresholds. And once they've crossed over one of a particular state's thresholds, generally they are then legally required to register with whatever group or department oversees sales taxes in that particular state, and to then start charging, collecting, and remitting sales taxes on all taxable sales to customers in that particular state going forward. And once a seller/AH has to start collecting sales tax in a particular state, they don't generally get to stop being liable for collecting it in subsequent years should their gross taxable sales and transaction volume fall below the thresholds.

The smaller AHs and sellers are always going to be required to collect sales taxes in states they are located in because they have an actual physical presence in those states.

Got it, that makes sense. Thanks!

irv · #7 12-24-2021, 07:31 AM

I agree. The BP should be shown/included when bidding.

Although I have only bid on a couple/few items from an auction house, imo, the process should be as seamless and friendly as possible since the AH's main objective is to attract potential bidders and keep them coming back.

Like any business/store, etc, when things are difficult to find and spread all over the store without any semblance of being organized, easy to find, making the purchasing process as easy as possible, I can't help but believe that that business/store might not be in business for long, or it sure won't get the customers that another store that does the opposite of those things will see.

Just my .2 cents, for what it's worth.

bnorth · #8 12-24-2021, 07:49 AM

The main thing I understand selling is if I sell a $1000 item on eBay I get approximately $875 after fees. Now if that same $1000 item sells with the usual 20/20 AH pricing I get approximately $665. That makes it an expensive service but worth it to many to not have to deal with eBay.

Jay Wolt · #9 12-24-2021, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

The main thing I understand selling is if I sell a $1000 item on eBay I get approximately $875 after fees. Now if that same $1000 item sells with the usual 20/20 AH pricing I get approximately $665. That makes it an expensive service but worth it to many to not have to deal with eBay.

I deal w/ many auction house & not one charges me any sellers premium.
& most of my consignments is lots under $1000

Sterling Sports Auctions · #10 12-24-2021, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

The main thing I understand selling is if I sell a $1000 item on eBay I get approximately $875 after fees. Now if that same $1000 item sells with the usual 20/20 AH pricing I get approximately $665. That makes it an expensive service but worth it to many to not have to deal with eBay.

Hi Ben, not sure where you are getting your figures from but the 20% buyer fee (if there is any out there) I would think would be for a lot that is intensive high in labor. Personally at Sterling our standard contract is never goes over 15% seller fee and that is on a rare occasion for ungraded or memorabilia that would take alot of time to photo/scan, description and pack and ship. Otherwise 10% seller fee on those items that can be flexible if the dollar amount is higher. Graded cards almost always have no seller fee.

So your example at Sterling almost always nets you $800 for a graded item and at worst $700 say if you have a complete set of cards selling for $1000 that would have a 10% seller fee. Once again what is your time worth and are you willing to deal with any potential headaches from the sales.

I would say if you have to pay a 20% seller fee at AH start shopping.

Happy Holidays

Lee

bnorth · #11 12-24-2021, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sterling Sports Auctions

Hi Ben, not sure where you are getting your figures from but the 20% buyer fee (if there is any out there) I would think would be for a lot that is intensive high in labor. Personally at Sterling our standard contract is never goes over 15% seller fee and that is on a rare occasion for ungraded or memorabilia that would take alot of time to photo/scan, description and pack and ship. Otherwise 10% seller fee on those items that can be flexible if the dollar amount is higher. Graded cards almost always have no seller fee.

So your example at Sterling almost always nets you $800 for a graded item and at worst $700 say if you have a complete set of cards selling for $1000 that would have a 10% seller fee. Once again what is your time worth and are you willing to deal with any potential headaches from the sales.

I would say if you have to pay a 20% seller fee at AH start shopping.

Happy Holidays

Lee

The 20/20 is what has been mentioned on here several times on lower price items. It was just an example and not aimed at anyone. I have very little experience myself.

I just noticed you are fairly close to me. For living out in the middle of nowhere anyway.

I will be selling a set worth more than the above price. I will have to PM you when that time comes fairly soon.

Tao_Moko · #12 12-24-2021, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

So I know the tax code changed a couple of years ago for internet sales, which leads to more sales tax collected.
But I am confused as to why a lot of the larger AHs charge sales tax in more states than some of the smaller ones that only charge in the state they are located and maybe a few others.

Does it have to do with volume of sales to each state or something?

The laws changed after South Dakota v Wayfair. Each state has it's own nexus which can be by volume of sales, dollar amount or both. That is assuming you(the business) has no property or w4/9 "empliyees" living and working within the state being sold in to.

Snowman · #13 12-25-2021, 07:38 AM

I'm surprised by how few people actually seem to understand the fees associated with each of the various selling options.

I constantly hear people comparing PWCC or Probstein fees to eBay even for higher end cards, saying something like "eBay charges 12.5%", so you're better off selling through Probstein anyhow because they only charge 10% or some such nonsense. If you have an ebay store (which only costs something like $20 per month), then those 12.5% selling fees only apply to the first $2500. Any amount above that only gets charged a 2.5% payment processing fee. If you sell a card for $15,000 on ebay, your total fees will be $625 (12.5% of $2500 + 2.5% of $12,500), which is only 4.2%. If you sell that same card through Probstein for $15,000, you'll pay $1500 in fees since that tier comes with a 10% consignment fee. And even if you sell through PWCC with their 20% buyers premium model, you're still not paying anywhere near 20% in actual fees as they give you a percentage of that buyers premium. For a card that sells for $15,000, they give you 110% of the hammer price, or half of the buyers premium. But even that still doesn't work out to paying a 10% fee. To figure out the true percentage, you take the amount you receive divided by the amount the buyer actually pays. So if they paid $15,000 with the buyers premium, then the hammer price was $12,500 + a $2500 buyer's premium, which you get half of. So, you would pay $1250 out of the $15,000 in fees to PWCC, which is 8.3%.

Cliff notes - if you sell a $15,000 card your fees would be
$625 on ebay (4.2%)
~$675 on myslabs.com (~4.5%, NOT 1% as advertised)
$1250 on PWCC (8.3%)
$1500 through Probstein (10%)

And even for the cheapest cards on PWCC that only sell for less than $50, which comes with the full 20% buyers premium going to PWCC, you still aren't paying them 20%. You're paying $2 in fees for a $12 sale, which is 16.7%, not 20%.

Snowman · #14 12-25-2021, 07:43 AM

In rebuttal to what some have claimed above, buyers always know exactly how much they're paying on PWCC. The buyers premium is not hidden. It's not up to them to figure it out on their own. When you go to place a bid, it states right there how much your total bid is including the buyers premium. So they're not trying to trick people into thinking they are paying less and suckering them in for another 20% at checkout as implied above. It's expressly stated right there on your bid amount.

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