Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and Roger Clemens don’t have the integrity, sportsmanship or

[ClementeFanOh]

Egri- a heartfelt "thanks" for naming Hank Aaron, baseball's most
consistent HR and RBI producer and an American hero. You're helping
me....

I checked Hank's stats from 1966-70. His 1968 stats were slightly below
average in HR and RBI (29 and 87 rather than mid 30s and 100), with
batting average and games played normal. There was no "miracle jump" in
stats in 68,69, or 70. Alas, your guys Sosa, McGwire, and Bonds can't say
the same...

Bonds was a great player whose HR numbers ballooned in early 2000s
with 73(!) in 01, about FIFTY percent higher than his second best HR
total. Sosa's stats are jaw dropping, he went from a lower 30s HR guy to 4
consecutive seasons averaging 60! McGwire is tougher due to injury, but his
70 HR came- guess when?- during the same time frame. Smell what I'm
cooking?

Now on to Hank's "amphetamines". Did he use them to add pop to his
swing or to increase bat speed? Stats do NOT back that up, they say the
opposite. How about for the remarkable restorative/recuperative power of
1960s stimulants? I don't think so. I haven't read the book, so what was
the amphetamine exactly? A "greenie"? The equivalent of a Red Bull today?
See how they just don't quite feel the same? I would hope so. And again,
I am not arguing that yesterday's players are "saints" or "angels". I am
arguing that they did NOT engage in a long term, concerted clinical effort
that they knew was a serious violation of MLB policy, to beat a cherished HR
season record .

Finally, the phrases "straw man" and "ad hominem" sound impressive- but
it helps when you use them properly. My argument is direct and not straw,
and you are on the wrong end of it- at no time did I say "you're ugly and
your momma dresses you funny", which would have been ad hominem.
The PED guys rolled dice and lost- and STILL might make the Hall. End of
story. Trent King

[tiger8mush]

[Peter_Spaeth]

As I recall he was furious not at one but at two bad calls, and got himself ejected.

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

The best part of this is when teams were doing send offs for Ortiz in his last game at whatever stadium, the Orioles presented him with a plaque/piece of wood with the broken phone reassembled. Not sure if the actual phone or another one they just broke apart for the occasion and reassembled, but it was pretty funny. Everybody got a good laugh out of that.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Now on to Hank's "amphetamines". Did he use them to add pop to his
swing or to increase bat speed? Stats do NOT back that up, they say the
opposite. How about for the remarkable restorative/recuperative power of
1960s stimulants? I don't think so. I haven't read the book, so what was
the amphetamine exactly? A "greenie"? The equivalent of a Red Bull today?
See how they just don't quite feel the same? I would hope so. And again,
I am not arguing that yesterday's players are "saints" or "angels". I am
arguing that they did NOT engage in a long term, concerted clinical effort
that they knew was a serious violation of MLB policy, to beat a cherished HR
season record .

I take essentially the same stuff for ADD. It is NOT like a red bull. Until you get used to it it's more like slamming several red bulls at once. (They didn't warn me to not drink my usual 8 cups of coffee before 10AM.... made for a very "interesting" first day!)
The early dose of the current stuff which is amphetamines was literally in green capsules. I had to explain to my doctor my comment about it making me feel like a ballplayer.

For me it helps me concentrate. Which if I had any small smidgen of talent might have made me a marginally better batter.
Ok, 1-1, maybe a curve coming... hey I think the pitcher shoelace is.. nope, just the angle. Hey that's an interesting cloud, and it's moving towards us while the wind is blowing out...
STRIKE TWO!
Darn it! Got to focus better...

From a not so scientific test done in the batting cages up the road a ways.
It does not help me hit a pitch moving more than about 50mph.
It does not help me hit the ball harder.

Some other stuff along with actual training would help hit harder, but probably wouldn't help with the coordintion or reflexes.

[ClementeFanOh]

Thank you, Steve B, that's interesting and aligns with my belief. I'll also
assume it didn't cause you to gain 30 pounds of muscle and for your head
to grow...and it didn't make you cork your bat as another advantage

The entire "the old timers did it too!" argument is pure sophistry. The 21st
century players have access to sophisticated PED technology (if that's the
word) and a network to provide it, that the vintage guys didn't- and
couldn't- access. It's like someone trying to persuade me that an M80 has t
he same destructive potential as a stick of dynamite. I was born during the
day, but it wasn't yesterday...

Sadly, I have a feeling some of the PED boys will slither their way into the
Hall of Fame, doubtless making some folks here really happy. Everyone will
know what they did to get there, though. Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Thank you, Steve B, that's interesting and aligns with my belief. I'll also
assume it didn't cause you to gain 30 pounds of muscle and for your head
to grow...and it didn't make you cork your bat as another advantage

The entire "the old timers did it too!" argument is pure sophistry. The 21st
century players have access to sophisticated PED technology (if that's the
word) and a network to provide it, that the vintage guys didn't- and
couldn't- access. It's like someone trying to persuade me that an M80 has t
he same destructive potential as a stick of dynamite. I was born during the
day, but it wasn't yesterday...

Sadly, I have a feeling some of the PED boys will slither their way into the
Hall of Fame, doubtless making some folks here really happy. Everyone will
know what they did to get there, though. Trent King

So you would punish more modern players because the drugs available to them got better, even though the old timers (well many of them) took whatever they could get hold of and in all likelihood would have taken anabolic steroids, HGH, etc. had they been available? What's the demarcation in your mind then? Is it a matter of you broke the rules or you didn't? Your personal definition of what enhances performance and what doesn't? Genuine question.

I don't believe for a minute the old timers were somehow morally superior/purer in their attitudes.

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter- No, swing and a miss. The modern players in question have enjoyed
fame (and infamy) and a TON of money, so the word "punish" seems a bit
of a reach, yes? The voters have "punished" them and, frankly, I'd be
stunned if many of them aren't laughing all the way to the bank. This isn't
a question of moral superiority, either. Put away all the debate and just
look at the stat lines! And, dare I say it, trust your eyes- LOOK at the
players and their metamorphosis. There is no question that these guys
engaged in a prolonged and deliberate series of MLB prohibited
"enhancements"- substantial ones- so they could claim a cherished
record that they couldn't possibly achieve on their own talent. Naturally,
fans have their favorites. I was 30 during the fake home run chase of
1998, the prime of fandom, and I don't miss those dudes a bit... Finally, I
don't hate these guys, I just find them desperate and pathetic. These are
not terms I associate with prospective HOF members. Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Peter- No, swing and a miss. The modern players in question have enjoyed
fame (and infamy) and a TON of money, so the word "punish" seems a bit
of a reach, yes? The voters have "punished" them and, frankly, I'd be
stunned if many of them aren't laughing all the way to the bank. This isn't
a question of moral superiority, either. Put away all the debate and just
look at the stat lines! And, dare I say it, trust your eyes- LOOK at the
players and their metamorphosis. There is no question that these guys
engaged in a prolonged and deliberate series of MLB prohibited
"enhancements"- substantial ones- so they could claim a cherished
record that they couldn't possibly achieve on their own talent. Naturally,
fans have their favorites. I was 30 during the fake home run chase of
1998, the prime of fandom, and I don't miss those dudes a bit... Finally, I
don't hate these guys, I just find them desperate and pathetic. These are
not terms I associate with prospective HOF members. Trent King

Right, but I am just curious where you draw the line, is it "cheating" which is a function of what the rules say, or is it "enhancing" which IMO is a slippery slope? Different people offer different justifications.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

I take essentially the same stuff for ADD. It is NOT like a red bull. Until you get used to it it's more like slamming several red bulls at once. (They didn't warn me to not drink my usual 8 cups of coffee before 10AM.... made for a very "interesting" first day!)
The early dose of the current stuff which is amphetamines was literally in green capsules. I had to explain to my doctor my comment about it making me feel like a ballplayer.

For me it helps me concentrate. Which if I had any small smidgen of talent might have made me a marginally better batter.
Ok, 1-1, maybe a curve coming... hey I think the pitcher shoelace is.. nope, just the angle. Hey that's an interesting cloud, and it's moving towards us while the wind is blowing out...
STRIKE TWO!
Darn it! Got to focus better...

From a not so scientific test done in the batting cages up the road a ways.
It does not help me hit a pitch moving more than about 50mph.
It does not help me hit the ball harder.

Some other stuff along with actual training would help hit harder, but probably wouldn't help with the coordintion or reflexes.

For the most part amphetamines in the batting cage would be used at higher doses so you can hit way way longer. The smaller doses are for games so you are not tired while playing.

The steroids come in because they let you heal at an insane rate. You need them after the crazy intense workouts you can do from the amphetamines. Without the steroids your body breaks down really fast from the workouts the amphetamines allow you to do.

It is best if you can stack a few different PEDs that all do different things.

Steroids are like aspirin, the work different with different people. The problem is most think steroids and instantly picture roided to the gills Mark McGwire. That is not how they work for everyone. Just look at all the skinny pitchers that have been busted over the years. Another perfect example is the Canseco brothers. Jose was a super star and then you had Ozzie.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

For the most part amphetamines in the batting cage would be used at higher doses so you can hit way way longer. The smaller doses are for games so you are not tired while playing.

The steroids come in because they let you heal at an insane rate. You need them after the crazy intense workouts you can do from the amphetamines. Without the steroids your body breaks down really fast from the workouts the amphetamines allow you to do.

It is best if you can stack a few different PEDs that all do different things.

Steroids are like aspirin, the work different with different people. The problem is most think steroids and instantly picture roided to the gills Mark McGwire. That is not how they work for everyone. Just look at all the skinny pitchers that have been busted over the years. Another perfect example is the Canseco brothers. Jose was a super star and then you had Ozzie.

Don't anabolics directly promote muscle growth, or is it just that they let you work out much more than your body would otherwise tolerate?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Don't anabolics directly promote muscle growth, or is it just that they let you work out much more than your body would otherwise tolerate?

In 20 years of personal experience different steroids do different things. The biggest thing is you can work out super hard and you don't get stiff and sore from that workout. It lets you workout more often and the amphetamines give you the energy to work out longer. They work amazing together, then add in some creatine to super load your cells with water so everything works better.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

In 20 years of personal experience different steroids do different things. The biggest thing is you can work out super hard and you don't get stiff and sore from that workout. It lets you workout more often and the amphetamines give you the energy to work out longer. They work amazing together, then add in some creatine to super load your cells with water so everything works better.

I am doubtless in a minority but at this point I find it hard to draw a clean line between so-called PEDs, amphetamines, cortisone, pain killers, whatever. If Sandy Koufax was having steroids shot into his elbow regularly and basically living on pain killers, did those "enhance" his performance? If a guy allegedly has hypogonadism and is prescribed testosterone supplements is he "enhancing" his performance?