OT: 3.5 Million Dollar Scam - Pokemon Cards Certified by BBCE

Peter_Spaeth · #1 01-17-2022, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric72

Hard to believe he'd voluntarily take part in that video had he discovered the case was likely a fabrication.

Right, which means San and Logan withheld the information from him. THEY knew the odds were this was going to be a bust, but led him on. With respect to Howard and others, something is just off about that video.

vintagetoppsguy · #2 01-17-2022, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right, which means San and Logan withheld the information from him. THEY knew the odds were this was going to be a bust, but led him on. With respect to Howard and others, something is just off about that video.

IMO, you're reading too much into it. If they would have divulged that info to Steve/BBCE beforehand, it's likely that he wouldn't have met with them. That's just my $.02.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 01-17-2022, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

IMO, you're reading too much into it. If they would have divulged that info to Steve/BBCE beforehand, it's likely that he wouldn't have met with them. That's just my $.02.

I think that was my point. They led him on because they wanted him to be in the video.

vintagetoppsguy · #4 01-17-2022, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think that was my point. They led him on because they wanted him to be in the video.

Ok, understood. But I think it was important for him to be there for a couple of reasons: (1) he could confirm that the BBCE shrink-wrap hadn't been tampered with since it left his facility and (2) he could give his justification for authenticating the case originally.

If it were me and I had spent that much money, I would want the authenticator to be there.

swarmee · #5 01-17-2022, 12:53 PM

But if you're Steve and this is coming back to you based on rumors from the internet, wouldn't he have the common sense to read those rumors? It's like he wasn't even aware of them, since all he talked about before they cracked it was the condition of the label (fake) and the tape (fake). Or someone from his business should have pulled him aside with all the information. The meeting in the hotel room was like 3-5 days *after* all the information was out there on video and webpages explaining the rationale it was fake. That's a lot of time that he had to look into the challenges.

Reminds me of the scene in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade; Steve should have known the phrase "penitent man" before walking into a buzzsaw.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 01-17-2022, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

But if you're Steve and this is coming back to you based on rumors from the internet, wouldn't he have the common sense to read those rumors? It's like he wasn't even aware of them, since all he talked about before they cracked it was the condition of the label (fake) and the tape (fake). Or someone from his business should have pulled him aside with all the information. The meeting in the hotel room was like 3-5 days *after* all the information was out there on video and webpages explaining the rationale it was fake. That's a lot of time that he had to look into the challenges.

Reminds me of the scene in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade; Steve should have known the phrase "penitent man" before walking into a buzzsaw.

He's of a certain generation. Maybe he doesn't follow social media/Pokemon forums/whatever.

frankbmd · #7 01-26-2022, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He's of a certain generation. Maybe he doesn't follow social media/Pokemon forums/whatever.

I'm of a certain generation (and I don't like it). I don't even know Pokemon forums existed.

bnorth · #8 01-26-2022, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I'm of a certain generation (and I don't like it). I don't even know Pokemon forums existed.

Frank it is never too late to take that T206 cash and invest it Pokemon.

Eric72 · #9 01-17-2022, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

...someone from his business should have pulled him aside with all the information. The meeting in the hotel room was like 3-5 days *after* all the information was out there...

This makes quite a bit of sense. How many employees are there at BBCE?

japhi · #10 01-17-2022, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right, which means San and Logan withheld the information from him. THEY knew the odds were this was going to be a bust, but led him on. With respect to Howard and others, something is just off about that video.

All the information on the case was available online. Going in to that video it was widely known the case had serious issues. Further, provenance on the case was brutal. I think Steve is a hobby good guy, but if he was blindsided by this then I question his approach to authentication and wonder if he owns a computer.

Peter_Spaeth · #11 01-17-2022, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by japhi

All the information on the case was available online. Going in to that video it was widely known the case had serious issues. Further, provenance on the case was brutal. I think Steve is a hobby good guy, but if he was blindsided by this then I question his approach to authentication and wonder if he owns a computer.

Of course he owns a computer, he does business online and through ebay. Maybe though he doesn't read Pok�mon forums or whatever other obscure places this stuff was posted. If you're Logan or San and are genuinely interested in Steve's ongoing opinion, why not tell him about the information and get his thoughts? Or is he just a prop for the video now?

swarmee · #12 01-17-2022, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course he owns a computer, he does business online and through ebay. Maybe though he doesn't read Pok�mon forums or whatever other obscure places this stuff was posted.

There were multiple threads on Blowout and Collector's Universe about it before Steve showed up, and Youtube videos with millions of views at that time. And I'd have to bet if he checked his emails, there would have been many people alerting him to his name being dragged through the mud. Or maybe he just doesn't have many friends. Even PSA should have been contacting him once it hit their message board.

bn2cardz · #13 01-17-2022, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course he owns a computer, he does business online and through ebay. Maybe though he doesn't read Pok�mon forums or whatever other obscure places this stuff was posted. If you're Logan or San and are genuinely interested in Steve's ongoing opinion, why not tell him about the information and get his thoughts? Or is he just a prop for the video now?

I don't follow Pokemon, but knew all about this before the reveal. This was not hidden in the obscurities of the internet. This was being brought up in other forums and social media sports card groups because of the crossover.

Steve Hart can't even be bothered to research a case that he is authenticating, so it doesn't surprise me that he didn't do any research going into this meeting.

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Peter_Spaeth · #14 01-17-2022, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

I don't follow Pokemon, but knew all about this before the reveal. This was not hidden in the obscurities of the internet. This was being brought up in other forums and social media sports card groups because of the crossover.

Steve Hart can't even be bothered to research a case that he is authenticating, so it doesn't surprise me that he didn't do any research going into this meeting.

I knew nothing about it until two days ago, but I don't look at social media or CU or whatever.

japhi · #15 01-17-2022, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course he owns a computer, he does business online and through ebay. Maybe though he doesn't read Pok�mon forums or whatever other obscure places this stuff was posted. If you're Logan or San and are genuinely interested in Steve's ongoing opinion, why not tell him about the information and get his thoughts? Or is he just a prop for the video now?

I was being facetious on the computer comment....

But I'd suggest that if you are in the business of authenticating 7 figure Pokemon cases you may want to follow the Poke forums and use all tools available to you. Hard to become a subject matter expert without any interest in the subject.

He also failed on hundreds of star on front cellos that were out of sequence, sequencing that is available online.

In a day and age when you can learn to build a house, or tear down a Chevy 350 online seems like a missed opportunity.

Peter_Spaeth · #16 01-17-2022, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by japhi

I was being facetious on the computer comment....

But I'd suggest that if you are in the business of authenticating 7 figure Pokemon cases you may want to follow the Poke forums and use all tools available to you. Hard to become a subject matter expert without any interest in the subject.

He also failed on hundreds of star on front cellos that were out of sequence, sequencing that is available online.

In a day and age when you can learn to build a house, or tear down a Chevy 350 online seems like a missed opportunity.

Matt, to be clear I'm not defending the mistaken authentication, just saying to me it's understandable he wouldn't have known of developments leading up to the video, not like he took on some ongoing obligation to monitor Pok�mon forums. After cases I work on are resolved I don't look every day for news about my clients.

vintagetoppsguy · #17 01-17-2022, 01:32 PM

To me, whether he knew or not, is irrelevant. I'm just trying to put myself in Steve's shoes and, if I were him, I would want to be there as the case was opened just to make sure the BBCE shrink-wrap had been tampered with since it was authenticated.

swarmee · #18 01-17-2022, 01:59 PM

Just went back to check, I bumped the BBCX thread on 1/1. So it was 1/8 when Steve reviewed the case, a full week later.

japhi · #19 01-17-2022, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Matt, to be clear I'm not defending the mistaken authentication, just saying to me it's understandable he wouldn't have known of developments leading up to the video, not like he took on some ongoing obligation to monitor Pok�mon forums. After cases I work on are resolved I don't look every day for news about my clients.

Understood Peter, you position on this is solid. I guess I struggle with experts and folks providing expertise that don�t use all tools available. My issue is with his research prior to authentication - all the warning signs seemed to be there and fairly available. His auth fee would have covered a days research. Makes me question his knowledge on other items. Simply can�t understand how provenance isn�t part of his method on ultra rare items.

Peter_Spaeth · #20 01-17-2022, 02:30 PM

Maybe the dude who had the case reviewed by Steve misled him. The article suggests maybe he wasn't an innocent player in all this, just repeating it here, not vouching for it.

"The Jacob Gabay Question

Everyone involved in this deal has released statements, and true or not, they seem plausible. The one individual who did not release a public comment on the affair was Jacob Gabay, AKA Card Kahuna.

According to Rattle Pokemon, who broke the story, he was contacted twice by Gabay regarding the incident. Both attempts at contact occurred before the opening. At first, he was confrontational and unrepentant and came from his business Instagram account.

He told Rattle that a defamation lawsuit would be forthcoming due to “business I lost out in [sic] due to your video.” However, he also insisted, “I’m 10000% sure this [Base Set] case is real.”

However, Rattle later received a message from another account, purporting to be Gabay’s personal account. The message there was quite different and included a potential bribe offer: “I will pay you $500,000 to take the video down. This is my personal account. Logan can’t open the box.”

Therefore, there are solid grounds for believing that Jacob Gabay committed fraud. However, that is merely an allegation for now."

hcv123 · #21 01-17-2022, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Matt, to be clear I'm not defending the mistaken authentication, just saying to me it's understandable he wouldn't have known of developments leading up to the video, not like he took on some ongoing obligation to monitor Pok�mon forums. After cases I work on are resolved I don't look every day for news about my clients.

To piggyback on what Jonathan shared - I think "mistaken authentication" is a really improper framing of what Steve Hart did - An incompetent, uneducated, complete lack of due dillegence authentication is closer to what I would call it. Steve took the position of subject matter expert on this - He is a "big boy" and made his own decision about that. As a self-declared "expert" he should have done enough homework (using whatever resources) to make himself at least as or close to well informed as the apparent real experts were - he did not. The rest - he was set up, he wasn't set up - to me is really irrelevant.

Irrelevant after thought - You want a plausible possibility that he wasn't set up - if the case turned out to be good and he was there, he may have been asked to either re-wrap the case or wrap the individual boxes.

Peter_Spaeth · #22 01-17-2022, 04:14 PM

Ironic that this forum seems to have more contempt for an honorable guy like Steve Hart who admittedly fucked up than the countless criminals trimming and otherwise altering cards, knowingly selling altered cards, knowingly GRADING altered cards, shilling auctions, knowingly selling fake memorabilia, and so forth.

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