And it's in, Ortiz has been elected to the Hall

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you think Papi didn't use, what's your take on his transformation beginning in 03 from his Twins years?

I'm not saying one way or the other if he used or not, but he had a few injuries to his wrist(s) and didn't get consistent playing time. Whenever the Twins sent him back down to the minors and he played regularly, he put up the numbers. When on the Twins, he didn't get that. Even when he got to the Red Sox in '03 he at first didn't play regularly due to Jeremy Giambi taking away from his playing time and he didn't do much. It was only when Ortiz started playing every day, about two months into the season, that he started producing.

I read some article the other day that mentioned something about the Twins stadium at the time and the park playing a factor as well with him. Something about him always trying to pull the ball to hit a home run instead of using the whole field or something and that the dimensions for Fenway made it easier for him to use the whole field/hit home runs. I don't remember the details on that though but that was the general idea.

[Fred]

Doesn't this all really boil down to Bonds, Clemens and others not being really friendly with the press and the amount of deception with the players (look at Palmeiro, great example of deception).

I bet if Bonds wasn't such a dick with the press and he was a "darling" of the press, then he'd be in.

The guy was a MONSTER for the Giants. Incredible numbers and look at the respect/fear they had for him when they gave him 120 free intentional passes (and a total of 232 BB) in 2004.

Papi = nice guy = HOF induction.

Who'd you rather have on your team? A-Rod or Papi?
Papi = in HOF
A-Rod = less than 50% of the required votes for HOF

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Fred

Doesn't this all really boil down to Bonds, Clemens and others not being really friendly with the press and the amount of deception with the players (look at Palmeiro, great example of deception).

I bet if Bonds wasn't such a dick with the press and he was a "darling" of the press, then he'd be in.

The guy was a MONSTER for the Giants. Incredible numbers and look at the respect/fear they had for him when they gave him 120 free intentional passes (and a total of 232 BB) in 2004.

Papi = nice guy = HOF induction.

Who'd you rather have on your team? A-Rod or Papi?
Papi = in HOF
A-Rod = less than 50% of the required votes for HOF

That's absolutely what this boils down to though, in the case of Bonds (domestic violence) and Roger Clemens (Mindy McCready), it's not just "well, he was mean to the press" that they dislike them for.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Fred

Doesn't this all really boil down to Bonds, Clemens and others not being really friendly with the press and the amount of deception with the players (look at Palmeiro, great example of deception).

I bet if Bonds wasn't such a dick with the press and he was a "darling" of the press, then he'd be in.

The guy was a MONSTER for the Giants. Incredible numbers and look at the respect/fear they had for him when they gave him 120 free intentional passes (and a total of 232 BB) in 2004.

Papi = nice guy = HOF induction.

Who'd you rather have on your team? A-Rod or Papi?
Papi = in HOF
A-Rod = less than 50% of the required votes for HOF

I would take A-Roid of Ortiz any day of the week.

Off topic like several posts. Since Alex played a little more than half his career at 3B. Career wise is he considered a shortstop or third baseman? If third baseman were does he fit on the all time best list for third basemen? Top 3 are easy with Mike Schmidt first. Wade Boggs and Eddie Mathews are second and third with no wrong order for those 2 legends. With only half his career at third I can't see Alex ahead of those 3.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Off topic like several posts. Since Alex played a little more than half his career at 3B. Career wise is he considered a shortstop or third baseman? If third baseman were does he fit on the all time best list for third basemen? Top 3 are easy with Mike Schmidt first. Wade Boggs and Eddie Mathews are second and third with no wrong order for those 2 legends. With only half his career at third I can't see Alex ahead of those 3.

Tough to say. I would say, at their peaks, Alex was better than Schmidt at 3B. Career-wise, Schmidt at 3B is ahead of Alex. But Alex also has half a career as the best SS of all-time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BCauley

I'm not saying one way or the other if he used or not, but he had a few injuries to his wrist(s) and didn't get consistent playing time. Whenever the Twins sent him back down to the minors and he played regularly, he put up the numbers. When on the Twins, he didn't get that. Even when he got to the Red Sox in '03 he at first didn't play regularly due to Jeremy Giambi taking away from his playing time and he didn't do much. It was only when Ortiz started playing every day, about two months into the season, that he started producing.

I read some article the other day that mentioned something about the Twins stadium at the time and the park playing a factor as well with him. Something about him always trying to pull the ball to hit a home run instead of using the whole field or something and that the dimensions for Fenway made it easier for him to use the whole field/hit home runs. I don't remember the details on that though but that was the general idea.

Ortiz had maybe 50 more HR on the road for his career than at home. A lot more 2B at home though and a much better BA. This is for whole career and I haven't filtered out the Minn years btw.

[Misunderestimated]

This is all about the elasticity of the Character Clause. If Bonds and Clemens were as "liked" as Ortiz they would be in by now. And if Sosa's likability was what it was before 2004 he would be in by now. Same with Schilling before he went from being a paragon to a pariah. (I wouldn't want Schilling to speak from behind the podium at a HOF induction so I get it by now)

None of these guys -- Bonds, Clemens, Schilling or Sosa -- made in ten years. Now it gets even less transparent. They go to the "appellate" committee composed of an ever-changing group of former players/managers/owners. Unfortunately this is often just a smaller group of people that selects those players that they "like."