ESPN Top 100

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And yet, Mantle is comfortably ahead on WAR type stats. 4th among CF, DiMaggio is 7th. And not just longevity, Mantle is ahead in WAR7, 64 to 52. And his dWAR for whatever reason is MUCH better 9.6 to 3.2.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l.../jaws_CF.shtml

And FWIW, Bill James rates Mantle 6th all time, DiMaggio 13th.

That is surely an indictment of WAR. Every person I have known who saw both play said DiMaggio was the better player. Mantle walked more but DiMaggio beat him by almost 60 total bases per 162 game season.

[Ricky]

No George Sisler.

[Fred]

Having a difficult time with a few of the selections:

Trout at # 15 - wow - that's a bit presumptuous - great player (no doubt). He's still playing. What happens if he plays 8 more years but with mere mortal numbers? Yes, top 100, but #15?

Harper at #94 - he's a .279 lifetime hitter. Yes, there's potential there, but really top 100?

Yes, more, but those two stand out to me.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Ricky

No George Sisler.

Thank you, Rich. The fact that he and Crawford aren't even on the list is shocking to me and, at the very least, shows a lack of appreciation or research on the greats of the first quarter of the 20th century by ESPN.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

That is surely an indictment of WAR. Every person I have known who saw both play said DiMaggio was the better player. Mantle walked more but DiMaggio beat him by almost 60 total bases per 162 game season.

The plural of anecdote is not data, my friend. Not that he's infallible, but I have a lot of respect for Bill James. Obviously both are very very upper echelon all time greats we can agree on that.

[John1941]

I'm far from PC, and don't think the Negro Leagues were the equal of the major leagues, but I think the low rating for Negro League greats is ridiculous. Oscar Charleston 53rd? He should, at the very least, be in top 20, and there's a good argument for him being in the top 5. Josh Gibson behind Derek Jeter? Whaaaa???

And I agree -- Bryce Harper is nowhere near the top 100. Needs three to five more great seasons.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by John1941

I'm far from PC, and don't think the Negro Leagues were the equal of the major leagues, but I think the low rating for Negro League greats is ridiculous. Oscar Charleston 53rd? He should, at the very least, be in top 20, and there's a good argument for him being in the top 5. Josh Gibson behind Derek Jeter? Whaaaa???

And I agree -- Bryce Harper is nowhere near the top 100. Needs three to five more great seasons.

Harper and Trout probably reflect who ESPN had on the panel. Still puzzling out Pedro, obviously a very great pitcher at his peak, but the career to me just doesn't add up to him ranking over Clemens, Young, Alexander, etc.

[molenick]

Yeah, I think Harper really stands out. I recall a book years ago of the 100 best players that had George Foster in it, I guess right after he had his monster years and before it was clear he was just going to be a very good player but not a great player. In retrospect, that was not a wise choice.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by John1941

I'm far from PC, and don't think the Negro Leagues were the equal of the major leagues, but I think the low rating for Negro League greats is ridiculous. Oscar Charleston 53rd? He should, at the very least, be in top 20, and there's a good argument for him being in the top 5. Josh Gibson behind Derek Jeter? Whaaaa???

And I agree -- Bryce Harper is nowhere near the top 100. Needs three to five more great seasons.

slap in the face

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

slap in the face

Yeah, and it's inexplicable given the recent efforts to elevate the Negro Leagues and sensibilities these days in general.

[RCMcKenzie]

WAR is not a perfect stat, but it works pretty well sometimes, and other times not at all.
47th Bob Gibson
48 George Brett
49 Tim Keefe
50 Robin Roberts
60 Nolan Ryan
65 Curt Shilling
66 Dimaggio

I don't think anyone thinks Schilling was a better baseball player than Dimaggio

[isiahfan]

Ozzie Smith?...NO WAY....

ARod...love him or hate him...SS and OF #s...way too low IMO

Gets dicey towards the middle as far a placement...but good list overall

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Well, I actually agree with the top 5….

[bnorth]

After going over the list I can't believe George Brett is ahead of Wade Boggs and Eddie Mathews. On best ever 3rd baseman lists he is always below them and correctly so.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

After going over the list I can't believe George Brett is ahead of Wade Boggs and Eddie Mathews. On best ever 3rd baseman lists he is always below them and correctly so.

Boggs had not much power once batting practice ended and that hurt his legacy, along with his appearance of self-obsession. Mathews just never got his due, I don't know why.

[RCMcKenzie]

In another thread, someone was naming their greatest pitchers and they went with the soccer-type, first name only, reference of "Pedro", and the first name I thought of was "Pedro Borbon". After about 30 seconds, I realized he was talking about Martinez. Martinez was good, and so were Roy Oswalt and Orel Hershiser.

[Tabe]

Mariano on the list at all is terrible let alone the high ranking he got. Oooooooh, he was great for 65 innings a year. Whoopee.

I definitely don't agree with Maddux ahead of Clemens. Clemens has a case for greatest pitcher ever. Maddux does not.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

WAR is not a perfect stat, but it works pretty well sometimes, and other times not at all.
47th Bob Gibson
48 George Brett
49 Tim Keefe
50 Robin Roberts
60 Nolan Ryan
65 Curt Shilling
66 Dimaggio

I don't think anyone thinks Schilling was a better baseball player than Dimaggio

It seems reasonable to me. Total WAR is a counting stat that rewards longevity - Dimaggio's career is very short, only 13 seasons and not all of them complete seasons. For a guy who played like 1,736 games in the OF, 79.2 WAR is incredible. If you factor in this longevity factor, Dimaggio's WAR relative to time played moves him way, way up the list.

[G1911]

Clemente 27th
Kaline 71st

WAR gives Clemente 94.8, Kaline 92.8. Their merits can be debated, but same position at the exact same time and very close statistically overall, with each a bit better in certain areas.

There are a number of players on this list rated on their popularity.

[RCMcKenzie]

Peter I said I could make a case, not that I would win. What do y'all think about Robin Roberts as the 50th "most valuable" of all-time by WAR? I did not see him play, but heard he had a good fastball early in his career. I picked up a nice 1956 Topps that I should be getting soon.

Greg, to me as a baseball card collector, I never saw Clemente or Kaline, but I consider them both all-time greats. I don't consider Bryce Harper an all-time great.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Greg, to me as a baseball card collector, I never saw Clemente or Kaline, but I consider them both all-time greats. I don't consider Bryce Harper an all-time great.

I couldn't agree more. Harper may end up there, but he's been far too inconsistent to appear on this list right now.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Peter I said I could make a case, not that I would win. What do y'all think about Robin Roberts as the 50th "most valuable" of all-time by WAR? I did not see him play, but heard he had a good fastball early in his career. I picked up a nice 1956 Topps that I should be getting soon.

Greg, to me as a baseball card collector, I never saw Clemente or Kaline, but I consider them both all-time greats. I don't consider Bryce Harper an all-time great.

Roberts pitched on mostly lousy teams but still seemed to have very impressive stats. That said, 50 feels a little high to me, just subjectively.

[MarcosCards]

Originally Posted by G1911

Clemente 27th
Kaline 71st

WAR gives Clemente 94.8, Kaline 92.8. Their merits can be debated, but same position at the exact same time and very close statistically overall, with each a bit better in certain areas.

There are a number of players on this list rated on their popularity.

You make an excellent observation regarding the ranking differential between these two Hall of Fame right fielders. I also agree with your conclusion regarding the apparent ‘popularity’ factor in the ranking - at least between these two players.

[insidethewrapper]

Where is Harry Heilmann ? He batted .390+ ( 4 times ) !! Only others to do that were Cobb and Hornsby. My Uncle saw Heilmann play and he use to say "he never seen anyone hit the ball harder then Harry ".