ESPN Top 100

[molenick]

I will start this by saying that this is in no way a knock on Satchel Paige and I post this with all due respect and only to open up a discussion.

Paige is clearly the most famous player who played primarily in the Negro Leagues. But now that we have statistics from those leagues, his seem very good but not extraordinary. The stats of Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Buck Leonard, Bullet Rogan, Turkey Stearnes, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, and Cool Papa Bell (among others) not only live up to their reputations but in many ways far exceed them, while Paige's stats are fine but don't jump off the page (no pun intended). By any statistical evidence that I see, he is not the best Negro League player ever [actually I see now that Gibson was rated higher...but Charleston should be as well, and maybe some others.]

Am I missing something in regard to his stats? Is it that we don't have complete data yet? That I am not interpreting his stats correctly? That a lot of his greatness came while pitching exhibition games? That the Negro Leagues were essentially hitter's leagues so the pitching stats are skewed? That shorter seasons are more conducive to impressive hitting stats than pitching stats?

Or is it possible that anecdotal evidence and his reputation (in many ways self-created) are greater than his actual ranking as a player. Kind of like King Kelly being the most famous (along with Anson) 19th century player but not being the best. And that we are so used to just assuming he is one of the best players that when people make these lists, they list him that high without really thinking about it.

Again, I say this in the spirit of discussion. I would like to stay on as many people's lawns as possible .

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by molenick

I will start this by saying that this is in no way a knock on Satchel Paige and I post this with all due respect and only to open up a discussion.

Paige is clearly the most famous player who played primarily in the Negro Leagues. But now that we have statistics from those leagues, his seem very good but not extraordinary. The stats of Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Buck Leonard, Bullet Rogan, Turkey Stearnes, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, and Cool Papa Bell (among others) not only live up to their reputations but in many ways far exceed them, while Paige's stats are fine but don't jump off the page (no pun intended). By any statistical evidence that I see, he is not the best Negro League player ever [actually I see now that Gibson was rated higher...but Charleston should be as well, and maybe some others.]

Am I missing something in regard to his stats? Is it that we don't have complete data yet? That I am not interpreting his stats correctly? That a lot of his greatness came while pitching exhibition games? That the Negro Leagues were essentially hitter's leagues so the pitching stats are skewed? That shorter seasons are more conducive to impressive hitting stats than pitching stats?

Or is it possible that anecdotal evidence and his reputation (in many ways self-created) are greater than his actual ranking as a player. Kind of like King Kelly being the most famous (along with Anson) 19th century player but not being the best. And that we are so used to just assuming he is one of the best players that when people make these lists, they list him that high without really thinking about it.

Again, I say this in the spirit of discussion. I would like to stay on as many people's lawns as possible .

https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/20...1/satchelpaige

[molenick]

Thanks, I will check this out. I was just going by my reaction when I went to the Baseball Reference pages of some Negro League greats. For the other guys, I was blown away with black ink, high averages, and other stats. I did not have the same reaction with Paige...but I may need to go a little deeper on him.

[Shoeless Moe]

So the Great White Dope comes in at #14 on ESPN's 2022 Fantasy Baseball rankings for his age 30 season, yet is #15 All Time.

https://www.espn.com/fantasy/basebal...s-leagues-2022

I highly doubt if there were Fantasy Baseball ranking going into any age 30 season on Ruth, Mays, Williams, Cobb, etc would ever have been below 1, 2 or 3....let alone 14!

Probably for ANY season they played, 'cept maybe their last 1 or 2 to end their careers.

Trout has 13 players ahead of him this year alone, again his age 30 season!!!!

Yet he's 15th all time?????? He's barely 15th this year!

Please.

Just asinine.


And to criticize Williams, who for 3 of his prime seasons went to WAR, and not the F--king stat, but to defend his country, gave up 3 of his best years, and later went back to fight in Korea.

Ignorant! Just that you think Trout has had a better career then Williams, good lord. I'm done. I can't stoop to your level of stupidity.

I've tried, I can't get there, you win.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Ignorant! Just that you think Trout has had a better career then Williams, good lord. I'm done. I can't stoop to your level of stupidity.

Maybe I missed it, but who said that “Trout has had a better career then [sic] Williams…”?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

Maybe I missed it, but who said that “Trout has had a better career then [sic] Williams…”?

Sure wasn't me lol. Total straw man. My only point was that pure counting numbers don't necessarily fully do justice to Trout. I brought up Ted again only to contextualize the point about Trout's post season numbers. I can't imagine how anyone could read that as criticizing him?

[Shoeless Moe]

OK you didn't "criticize", you compared or knocked his WS #'s. Don't do that. Do not compare him to Williams. Pick Josh Gibson or Bryce Harper. If you want to compare him to someone.

First, if Williams plays for the Red Sox those 3 years, he ABSOLUTELY wins the World Series at least 2 of those years. I think the Red Sox w/Williams (and in his prime) would take down those powerhouse St L Browns fairly easily.

2nd, back to Trout.

He's NEVER led the league in:

Hits
Home Runs
Triples
Doubles
Batting Average
RBIs (he led once in 11 years)
SBs (he led once in 11 years)

He's never been in a World Series
He's never won a Playoff game (0 for 3)

He's batted .083 in Post Season play.

I'm sorry those numbers don't crack the Top 30 players of All Time.

Trout does everything very good, but nothing Great. And to be Great you need to do something Great, lead in HR's, lead in Stolen Bases, lead in RBI's, lead in Batting Average, lead in something, take you team to the Playoffs consistently. He's done none of that. He's a mere poster boy for auction house hype, and looks the part, but unfortunately just doesn't have the numbers. The REAL numbers. And I don't care about WAR and who he's replacing.

The Angels need to worry more about who's replacing him, not who he is replacing, he's hurt so often lately they need to find a better replacement player. WAR-MT.

He played at a time where for the most part there were not a lot of great players until recently. Now there is an influx of young talent that has pushed Trout back to #14 on 2022 rankings, and are just as talented as he was. We just need a few years to let that young talent play out.

So all that lack of achieving doesn't get in the Top 30 All Time.

Williams was a true beast and probably the GREATEST pure hitter of all time, please don't compare the 2, even if it's just post season numbers because there too, Ted at least made it to a WS.......let's see if Trout can get out of the "Wild Card" round. Then we'll talk.

Or get back to me in 10 years................................and Williams will still win that battle.