WW3 Please SAY NO!

AustinMike · #1 03-07-2022, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

Ukraine was ostensibly "free" although it is a very corrupt country and neo-Nazis groups are a force to be reckoned within the country. By declaring neutrality, Ukraine may not have become a part of NATO, but it would have actually safeguarded it's security. They have brought on the very thing they had hoped to keep from happening. That's why elected leaders should be learned in history and politics, actually having a background for leading. Zelensky was a comedian. At any rate, Zelensky should have acknowledged the reality of the situation and avoided trouble with his nuclear power neighbor. His people are dying for his mistake. His calls for a no-fly zone show how delusional and out of touch with reality he is.

I'm sure glad people don't think we are a "free" country with a recently stolen election. Also, I'm sure glad we don't have corruption in our country. Lastly, it's a blessing that we don't have neo-Nazis groups in this country, I don't know, holding rallies. Because if we did, people would think other countries would be justified in freeing us by military force.

jgannon · #2 03-07-2022, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinMike

I'm sure glad people don't think we are a "free" country with a recently stolen election. Also, I'm sure glad we don't have corruption in our country. Lastly, it's a blessing that we don't have neo-Nazis groups in this country, I don't know, holding rallies. Because if we did, people would think other countries would be justified in freeing us by military force.

How you doing AustinJoeMcCarthy?

Russia invaded Ukraine because of encirclement by NATO and the threat of the addition of Ukraine to that alliance. As far as neo-nazis go, in Ukraine they have committed atrocities in the east.

earlywynnfan · #3 03-07-2022, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

How you doing AustinJoeMcCarthy?

Russia invaded Ukraine because of encirclement by NATO and the threat of the addition of Ukraine to that alliance. As far as neo-nazis go, in Ukraine they have committed atrocities in the east.

I've asked others before, maybe you know: if Russia takes over Ukraine, how does this lessen the encirclement by NATO?

jgannon · #4 03-07-2022, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I've asked others before, maybe you know: if Russia takes over Ukraine, how does this lessen the encirclement by NATO?

Well if Puerto Rico and Cuba were aligned against us with weapons and missiles in those countries to potentially be used against us. Would we be wanting Haiti and the Dominican Republic to join on board?

It was a red line Putin drew a long time ago, back in 2007. He has been consistent on it. I do not support his invasion at all. But the U.S. and Ukraine were reckless and stupid.

earlywynnfan · #5 03-07-2022, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

Well if Puerto Rico and Cuba were aligned against us with weapons and missiles in those countries to potentially be used against us. Would we be wanting Haiti and the Dominican Republic to join on board?

It was a red line Putin drew a long time ago, back in 2007. He has been consistent on it. I do not support his invasion at all. But the U.S. and Ukraine were reckless and stupid.

This is not an equal analogy. How about this: Russia is North Carolina, the Ukraine is South Carolina. Georgia would be Poland. So NC invades SC because they are worried about it joining NATO and it doesn't want another NATO country on it's doorstep. Now it's territory includes SC, and, well, shit, now we're next door to a NATO country!!

The whole "We invaded Ukraine because we're worried about NATO" excuse doesn't fly, sorry. How sure are you this is the real reason for this invasion??

JeremyW · #6 03-07-2022, 04:29 PM

I'm surprised that we & the allies haven't done more to stop this unprovoked killing in Ukraine.

JeremyW · #7 03-07-2022, 04:42 PM

When I hear & see of the "stalled" Russian convoy, I wonder why it hasn't been destroyed? I don't understand it.

jgannon · #8 03-07-2022, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

This is not an equal analogy. How about this: Russia is North Carolina, the Ukraine is South Carolina. Georgia would be Poland. So NC invades SC because they are worried about it joining NATO and it doesn't want another NATO country on it's doorstep. Now it's territory includes SC, and, well, shit, now we're next door to a NATO country!!

The whole "We invaded Ukraine because we're worried about NATO" excuse doesn't fly, sorry. How sure are you this is the real reason for this invasion??

Just seeing this. The whole thing is a slap in the face to Russia. Putin feels the West is using Ukraine for it's own purposes. Unfortunately, Ukraine is a pawn. To use your analogy, think of Russia occupying North Carolina even though North Carolina would ostensibly still be one of the 50 states with a governor etc. And then it begins arming it and installing missiles there. The U.S. wouldn't feel too good about it.

Mark17 · #9 03-08-2022, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

Just seeing this. The whole thing is a slap in the face to Russia.

What Russia is doing to Ukraine is quite a bit worse than a slap in the face.

earlywynnfan · #10 03-08-2022, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

Just seeing this. The whole thing is a slap in the face to Russia. Putin feels the West is using Ukraine for it's own purposes. Unfortunately, Ukraine is a pawn. To use your analogy, think of Russia occupying North Carolina even though North Carolina would ostensibly still be one of the 50 states with a governor etc. And then it begins arming it and installing missiles there. The U.S. wouldn't feel too good about it.

Slap in the face? Putin can't handle a slap to the face? This guy??: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/08/w...ussia-gru.html
When did Putin become a delicate flower, with the big bad US meanies pushing him around?

Mark17 · #11 03-07-2022, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

How you doing AustinJoeMcCarthy?

Russia invaded Ukraine because of encirclement by NATO and the threat of the addition of Ukraine to that alliance. As far as neo-nazis go, in Ukraine they have committed atrocities in the east.

Makes no sense. Now, he has Ukraine as a non-NATO buffer. If he reunifies Ukraine, he has NATO (Poland, primarily) on his western border. Had Ukraine joined NATO, he'd have NATO on his western border.

Regardless, you don't just decide you're unhappy with the politics of a neighbor and then roll tanks in to destroy their lives and buildings.

By the way, NATO is a defensive alliance. It is a joint defensive pact only, not a joint offensive agreement. The only reason Putin would feel threatened by a defensive alliance would be that it poses an obstacle to his offensive war plans.

jgannon · #12 03-07-2022, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Makes no sense. Now, he has Ukraine as a non-NATO buffer. If he reunifies Ukraine, he has NATO (Poland, primarily) on his western border. Had Ukraine joined NATO, he'd have NATO on his western border.

Regardless, you don't just decide you're unhappy with the politics of a neighbor and then roll tanks in to destroy their lives and buildings.

By the way, NATO is a defensive alliance. It is a joint defensive pact only, not a joint offensive agreement. The only reason Putin would feel threatened by a defensive alliance would be that it poses an obstacle to his offensive war plans.

While NATO is a defensive alliance, the entire reason for it's existence and for the missile buildup for so many years during the Cold War was distrust. Both countries were aware of the balance of power regarding how many missiles each country had, as well as where they were deployed, which had a bearing on how quickly they could react to a potential nuclear attack.

If as you say, NATO is defensive, Russia may be asking why do they need to arm and deploy when we do not seek to attack them.

The U.S. also pulled out of treaties such as the ABM Treaty, the INF Treaty, and the Open Skies Treaty. The U.S. pulled out of those, not Russia.

Lastly, missiles are deployed in Poland and being constructed in Romania. Russia doesn't see these as defensive actions, but provocative ones.

Mark17 · #13 03-07-2022, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

While NATO is a defensive alliance, the entire reason for it's existence and for the missile buildup for so many years during the Cold War was distrust. Both countries were aware of the balance of power regarding how many missiles each country had, as well as where they were deployed, which had a bearing on how quickly they could react to a potential nuclear attack.

And Russia hasn't attacked a NATO country, and no NATO country has invaded Russia. NATO has helped keep the peace to everyones' benefit (besides Putin's expansionist desires that is.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

If as you say, NATO is defensive, Russia may be asking why do they need to arm and deploy when we do not seek to attack them.

To remain prepared, as a deterrent, obviously. Why does Russia's army conduct exercises, missile tests, etc. if they are not a threat? And what's with "If, as you say...?" Are you uncertain regarding NATO's defensive charter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

The U.S. also pulled out of treaties such as the ABM Treaty, the INF Treaty, and the Open Skies Treaty. The U.S. pulled out of those, not Russia.

According to Wiki, the USSR has the most nuclear warheads in the world, 700 more than the USA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...more%20rows%20

When Russia has more weapons already, and when they either don't comply with treaties or make verification difficult if not impossible, what good are treaties?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

Lastly, missiles are deployed in Poland and being constructed in Romania. Russia doesn't see these as defensive actions, but provocative ones.

Don't you think some of Russia's 1,456 deployed nuclear warheads are pointed towards Poland, Romania, and all other NATO countries?

You sure do have a one-sided view of things.

jgannon · #14 03-07-2022, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

And Russia hasn't attacked a NATO country, and no NATO country has invaded Russia. NATO has helped keep the peace to everyones' benefit (besides Putin's expansionist desires that is.)

To remain prepared, as a deterrent, obviously. Why does Russia's army conduct exercises, missile tests, etc. if they are not a threat? And what's with "If, as you say...?" Are you uncertain regarding NATO's defensive charter?

According to Wiki, the USSR has the most nuclear warheads in the world, 700 more than the USA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...more%20rows%20

When Russia has more weapons already, and when they either don't comply with treaties or make verification difficult if not impossible, what good are treaties?

Don't you think some of Russia's 1,456 deployed nuclear warheads are pointed towards Poland, Romania, and all other NATO countries?

You sure do have a one-sided view of things.

1) Russia hasn't attacked a NATO country, but that doesn't mean it was comfortable with further encirclement by NATO. Ukraine brought about the very thing it hoped to avoid, as did the U.S. and NATO. I'm still not saying Putin should have invaded. They felt threatened by further encirclement.

2) They conducted them from what I understand as a warning to Ukraine and potential NATO membership.

3 and 4) Both the Russia and the U.S have the most nuclear weapons, with Russia yes, having more. The idea of detente back in the 70s and 80s was to pull back from the potential nuclear abyss. Our leaders at that time seemingly had a full understanding of mutually assured destruction, and signed these treaties and eliminated stockpiles. The U.S. has been thumbing it's nose at this concept for 30 years first taking advantage of Russia's weakened position after the Soviet Union broke up, and continuing on a bellicose path after 9/11 in general, and increasingly toward Russia specifically after Maidan and Trumps election. The United States actually has NO MORAL GROUND to tell anyone not to invade anyone else anyway. See: Iraq, Afghanistan (who did not attack us on 9/11), Libya, and Yemen.

Mark17 · #15 03-07-2022, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

The United States actually has NO MORAL GROUND to tell anyone not to invade anyone else anyway. See: Iraq, Afghanistan (who did not attack us on 9/11), Libya, and Yemen.

I don't agree with the US getting involved in all those wars, or Vietnam either for that matter. But, did the USA annex any of those countries? Did we grant them statehood, insist they fly the US flag, or speak English?

Did we subjugate them, or try to stand them up as independent, self ruling democracies?

That's a big difference.

AustinMike · #16 03-08-2022, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

How you doing AustinJoeMcCarthy?

Ha ha, I am doing fine. Oh if Joe only called people stooges back in the day, he wouldn't be as well known as he is now, would he?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

Russia invaded Ukraine because of encirclement by NATO and the threat of the addition of Ukraine to that alliance.

See Ted's (gawaintheknight) response above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

As far as neo-nazis go, in Ukraine they have committed atrocities in the east.

You mean like this:

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2...ines-war-camps

"�Some stay, some die�: The horror of Ukraine�s war camps"

Now, I don't mean to be flippant or play the "both sides" game, because atrocities are not something to be casually dismissed. But it's just another one of Putin's excuses to invade. Again, see Ted's post.