Would you follow through and pay? Brady's last TD

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

On the other hand, by adding a sentence to the auction Leland's easily could have foreclosed any argument by the buyer.

Could there be a reasonable person argument made? Since, the second Brady retired speculation about a comeback was rampant in the media, would a reasonable person have to assume the possibility of a comeback?

[keithsky]

Funny how all the big stars always say there retiring to spend more time with their family. Then after a few months their back playing ball again. So much for quailty time with the family. Guess the family doesn't cheer them when they walk in the room

[BobC]

Originally Posted by keithsky

Funny how all the big stars always say there retiring to spend more time with their family. Then after a few months their back playing ball again. So much for quailty time with the family. Guess the family doesn't cheer them when they walk in the room

Famous comedian, and one time part-owner of the Cleveland Indians, Bob Hope, got married to his wife Dolores in 1934, and remained so till he died 69 years later. Many years after getting married, Hope was asked the secret for his long marriage to just one women, his wife Dolores. He quickly responded it was very simple, they went out to dinner twice a week..............he went on Tuesdays and she went on Thursdays!

[BobC]

One huge difference in say Leland's just cancelling the sale is that if this item was sold for say $5K-$10K, or even a bit more, the legal fees potentially involved could easily end up being way more than what the item is even worth. So not at all then worth pursuing by either side really. But for an item selling for over $500K, that's a whole different story. And without specific wording in the consignment agreement specifically allowing an AH to unilaterally make such a decision on the consigner's behalf, I would think the AH has a duty to go after the auction winner to complete the sale and pay the full price they agreed to pay.

Technically Leland's made no false statements in their auction description, and even at this moment, that football is still the final one Brady has thrown for a TD pass in his career, retired or unretired.

[Smarti5051]

Originally Posted by BobC

Technically Leland's made no false statements in their auction description, and even at this moment, that football is still the final one Brady has thrown for a TD pass in his career, retired or unretired.

By this logic, it would be fair to advertise a May 2021 Angels baseball ticket as the "final game of Mike Trout's career." Or, Super Bowl tickets from last month can be advertised as the "final game of Matt Stafford's career." Technically, they have not played in a game since those games happened. The fact that Leland specifically represented the football as "the last touchdown of Tom Brady's career" establishes that this was material to the transaction.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

By this logic, it would be fair to advertise a May 2021 Angels baseball ticket as the "final game of Mike Trout's career." Or, Super Bowl tickets from last month can be advertised as the "final game of Matt Stafford's career." Technically, they have not played in a game since those games happened. The fact that Leland specifically represented the football as "the last touchdown of Tom Brady's career" establishes that this was material to the transaction.

Does anyone have a ticket to Wander Franco's last game?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

By this logic, it would be fair to advertise a May 2021 Angels baseball ticket as the "final game of Mike Trout's career." Or, Super Bowl tickets from last month can be advertised as the "final game of Matt Stafford's career." Technically, they have not played in a game since those games happened. The fact that Leland specifically represented the football as "the last touchdown of Tom Brady's career" establishes that this was material to the transaction.

Absolutely right, and technically correct in both your examples. There is no 100% guarantee that either one ever plays again. People seem to be acting like auction winners in such cases are poor, innocent, naive bidders who have been completely fooled by the evil AH description and tricked into bidding their hard earned money to buy something that eventually turns out to not be worth what they ended up paying for it. What about the possibility the auction winners are smart, savvy, and maybe conniving collectors/dealers looking to grab a collectible that there may still be some questions or doubts about as to its historical significance and value. But they bid to take advantage of that doubt themselves to try and get a big score at a cheap price, or make a huge profit reselling it down the road.

So be completely honest with yourself. Which type of bidder do you really think is most likely bidding on items like these with maybe some lingering doubts as to their significance and value, especially in cases where they're willing to bid $500K? And then answer me why they should be able to back out of such a deal, with virtually none of the risk on them?

If this deal does end up going south for the consigner, I sincerely hope that Brady ends up changing his mind and re-retiring, or at least ends up never throwing another NFL TD again, for whatever reason. And then the consigner puts the same football back up for auction, but now gets 2X, 3X, 4X what he was originally supposed to get for it in this Leland's auction.

But of course this is all just speculation at this point. No one has heard what the auction winner intends to do yet, have they? Until then, this is all moot.

[D. Bergin]

Leland’s owes the consignor their share of the sale if the top bidder follows through on their bid and pays for the item. No more, no less.

I don’t think it’s as complicated as you guys are making it out to be.

I mean, you can make it as complicated as you want, and hire Alan Dershowitz to take it all the way to The Supreme Court if you want to throw a lot of money (and time) away.

Make an example of a customer who obviously is a victim of dumb circumstance in order to make some ridiculous point or hold them to some legal technicality.

It’s silly.

It’s a free football that a dumb jock threw into the stands.

BTW, I’m not the high bidder on this item. Just want to make sure I’m being transparent in my argument. 😂

I’d have to explain to my wife why I just sold our house, everything in it, both our cars and a good part of our retirement fund, for a $40,000 football.

I’m not normally this sympathetic to people who have enough money to throw around on baubles like this.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by BobC

Famous comedian, and one time part-owner of the Cleveland Indians, Bob Hope, got married to his wife Dolores in 1934, and remained so till he died 69 years later. Many years after getting married, Hope was asked the secret for his long marriage to just one women, his wife Dolores. He quickly responded it was very simple, they went out to dinner twice a week..............he went on Tuesdays and she went on Thursdays!

Bob, I have a friend with a true variation of your story. He had been married over 60 years. When asked about his secret he said:

"On our 30th wedding anniversary we celebrated in Hawaii. On our 60th wedding anniversary I returned to Hawaii to pick her up."

[BobC]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Bob, I have a friend with a true variation of your story. He had been married over 60 years. When asked about his secret he said:

"On our 30th wedding anniversary we celebrated in Hawaii. On our 60th wedding anniversary I returned to Hawaii to pick her up."

LOL

That's another good one Frank.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by keithsky

This is a smaller scale but it's like going to a concert that was promoted as the artist farewell tour. You buy the ticket, concert is over, sell the ticket for a good sum of money then the artist decides to come out of retirement a couple years later to tour again.

I went to the (first) Kiss farewell tour in 2000. I know the year as I still have the T-shirt. By my estimation I've seen four more farewell tours since then. The last one was in Chula Vista (San Diego) in September of 2021.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by keithsky

Funny how all the big stars always say there retiring to spend more time with their family. Then after a few months their back playing ball again. So much for quailty time with the family. Guess the family doesn't cheer them when they walk in the room

After wading through the legal discussions, this is the best quote on here. I spewed my drink reading this.

How many people have retired from "normal jobs" and find the transition hard? I retired about a year ago, and my wife sure seems to be around a lot more.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Could there be a reasonable person argument made? Since, the second Brady retired speculation about a comeback was rampant in the media, would a reasonable person have to assume the possibility of a comeback?

So why doesn't that give rise to a duty on Leland's to disclose the speculation? Leland's knows and has made clear all the value in the ball depends on his being retired. All these arguments cut both ways it seems to me.

[doug.goodman]

Maybe Tom Brady was in on it...

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So why doesn't that give rise to a duty on Leland's to disclose the speculation? Leland's knows and has made clear all the value in the ball depends on his being retired. All these arguments cut both ways it seems to me.

Peter, Don't get mad, and not trying to be a contrarian, but the value does not depend on Brady being retired or not. It depends on whether or not he ever throws another TD in an NFL game. To me, that is a big difference.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Peter, Don't get mad, and not trying to be a contrarian, but the value does not depend on Brady being retired or not. It depends on whether or not he ever throws another TD in an NFL game. To me, that is a big difference.

Same thing. If Brady had not retired, the ball right now would be worthless. It's a crucial assumption for both parties.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Same thing. If Brady had not retired, the ball right now would be worthless. It's a crucial assumption for both parties.

No, because if Brady comes back out of retirement (which he apparently has, but who knows if that won't change again next week), who's to say he doesn't get injured and can never play again, or gets killed in a car or plane accident, or whatever it is that keeps him from throwing another TD.

All NFL quarterbacks who throw a TD in an NFL game are not retired. But not all NFL quarterbacks who are not retired are absolutely guaranteed to throw a TD in an NFL game.

Anyway, no one knows what the auction winner is going to do yet, right? We're all just wasting time and energy debating till something happens. LOL

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

No, because if Brady comes back out of retirement (which he apparently has, but who knows if that won't change again next week), who's to say he doesn't get injured and can never play again, or gets killed in a car or plane accident, or whatever it is that keeps him from throwing another TD.

All NFL quarterbacks who throw a TD in an NFL game are not retired. But not all NFL quarterbacks who are not retired are absolutely guaranteed to throw a TD in an NFL game.

Anyway, no one knows what the auction winner is going to do yet, right? We're all just wasting time and energy debating till something happens. LOL

We are talking past each other. It's not worth continuing. But let's try it this way. If you had bought the ball, would you still want it at that price because it's still his last TD? Or would you not want it because he has unretired? QED.

[FrankWakefield]

When I first saw this thread I initially thought that the buyer bought it, it's his.

But I didn't post one of my cynical, heartless responses.

I thought more about it, and decided that Brady should probably honor the bid if the buyer didn't want to follow through with it. Now who here knows Tom or his agent well enough to suggest this to him.

But that's not now how I have decided what should happen. Think about it. Is Tom Brady the first professional athlete who retired and then returned? Absolutely not. Did the auction house guarantee that Brady would stay retired? NO! The buyer bought that ball, he should honor his bid. I understand the ball may well not be the last touchdown pass of the career ball; but it wasn't a conditional bid / purchase. The high bidder should pay, and everyone should learn from it.

(Being a Colts fan since about 1965, give or take a year, I kinda liked the deflated comment. And being a Colts fan, who the hell would want a Tom Brady anything???)

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

We are talking past each other. It's not worth continuing. But let's try it this way. If you had bought the ball, would you still want it at that price because it's still his last TD? Or would you not want it because he has unretired? QED.

Well that's different. LOL. If you're just talking about the value of the football, it is definitely greater if it does ends up being the football used for the last ever NFL TD he throws. But it will still have a significant value as a Brady thrown TD football, probably just not $500k worth. And if he does end up changing teams after un-retiring, you could still realistically say it is his last career TD thrown football as a Buccaneer.

I'm looking at this as a discussion of the contract law in place, and as to whether or not the auction winner has the ability to get out of paying for this football. Now that Brady has changed his mind about retiring, so that it now seems chances are he will throw another TD pass in his career, the perceived value dropped in the eyes of most people. At least temporarily till Brady's status as retired or not is finally settled. For all we know, this could be a calculated ploy on his part to get himself a better deal somewhere, doing who knows what, and he actually never intended to play anymore after all.

I believe this would be subject to state, not any federal law, and be based on laws in the state that Leland's is headquartered in and primarily operates out of. I'm also guessing that it stipulates which state's laws the auction is covered by in the auction rules/terms of use/whatever you want to call it that the auction winner had to affirm and agree to before they are allowed to bid in the auction. Now I did not go back and read Leland's auction rules/terms, but am pretty confident if I did that it will state something to the effect that by bidding in a Leland's auction you are entering into a binding contract to purchase an item once you are determined to be the winning bidder. The main question in this case then will be, when does the liability for changes in the circumstances of this football legally switch from the consigner to the buyer.

I honestly don't know the specific and exact state laws applicable in this instance, so can't say for sure if ownership and liability transfer in this case is deemed to take effect immediately when the auction ended and the high bidder was determined and declared. Or maybe the transfer doesn't take effect and is considered binding till the winner bidder is officially notified and invoiced. And then again, maybe the transfer doesn't take effect till the invoice is paid and the football is delivered to the auction winner. In any event, at the time of the auction, through its end, all of the statements and description of the football's status were true and accurate. And still are, technically and factually, until Brady actually throws another TD. Which there is no guarantee he ever will, just a great possibility if he goes through on un-retiring and plays some more after all.

I'm aware of the issues and questions brought up about the change of circumstances arising from Brady's latest announcement, but look more to when the ownership and liability transfer of the football takes effect under the applicable state laws to determine an answer. And without knowing if there is any specific rule or measure the applicable state's contract laws look at in a case like this, we're all just blindly guessing at this point. And for me, I'm guessing the end of the auction signals the commencement of the binding contract, and in the absence of fraud, deceit, or intentional withholding or misrepresentation of pertinent information regarding the property being sold, by the owner or their agent/representative, if I were on the jury for this case I'd vote that the auction winner had to pay up, they bought it.

What say you?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So why doesn't that give rise to a duty on Leland's to disclose the speculation? Leland's knows and has made clear all the value in the ball depends on his being retired. All these arguments cut both ways it seems to me.

By the same logic, would someone need to disclose in the sale of a $400,000 Fernando Tatis, Jr. superfractor card “(PLEASE NOTE: Mr. Tatis has a proclivity to ride Motorcycles at night rates of speed and apparently has crashed now on more
than one occasion. The long term value of this card and all cards involving Mr. Tatis may be contingent upon future accidents beyond the control of the auction house.”

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

By the same logic, would someone need to disclose in the sale of a $400,000 Fernando Tatis, Jr. superfractor card “(PLEASE NOTE: Mr. Tatis has a proclivity to ride Motorcycles at night rates of speed and apparently has crashed now on more
than one occasion. The long term value of this card and all cards involving Mr. Tatis may be contingent upon future accidents beyond the control of the auction house.”

LOL. Hopefully the three month projection on his being out will prove right and he won't miss the season.

[Snapolit1]

I don’t see how any of this varies significantly from paying big bucks for a 1/1 card, only to find out 6 Months later that 7 others have suddenly
appeared at the same grade (one of those common farmhouse attic finds)
and I paid a ridiculous amount for what is now a 1 of 8.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I don’t see how any of this varies significantly from paying big bucks for a 1/1 card, only to find out 6 Months later that 7 others have suddenly
appeared at the same grade (one of those common farmhouse attic finds)
and I paid a ridiculous amount for what is now a 1 of 8.

If Leland’s said this is the one and only Taris card ever produced and there ended up being more, would seems like a problem on their part. If they said highest grade and there are no others, but then more were found or graded, that would seem fine. This strikes me as more like the former - their description goes way too far to say it’s the last td of the guy’s career. Could have just said it’s the last td he threw before announcing his retirement. Would have avoided a lot of arguments against the sale.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Carter08

If Leland’s said this is the one and only Taris card ever produced and there ended up being more, would seems like a problem on their part. If they said highest grade and there are no others, but then more were found or graded, that would seem fine. This strikes me as more like the former - their description goes way too far to say it’s the last td of the guy’s career. Could have just said it’s the last td he threw before announcing his retirement. Would have avoided a lot of arguments against the sale.

I see the point, but as others have pointed out, there have been daily news stories about Brady waffling. Not like an auction house description is the only piece of information a reasonable buyer has access to.

[jcmtiger]

Not a Brady fan, hope he falls on his face . He and Rodgers are publicity fans looking out for them selves.