T206 group of 350-only Series NO-PRINTS....CB, EPDG, OM, PB

HobokenJon · #1 03-22-2022, 05:03 PM

Ted . . . OK, but you showed in post #27 that Rhoades (arm extended) is part of the 350-460 series and that it has an apple green Sovereign 350 back. For the avoidance of doubt, you think it's actually part of the 350-only series? If that were the case, shouldn't it have a forest green Sovereign 350 back like other 350-only subjects, instead of apple green?

I thought we both agreed that subjects with apple green Sovereign 350 backs are part of the 350-460 series, no?

tedzan · #2 03-22-2022, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HobokenJon

Ted . . . OK, but you showed in post #27 that Rhoades (arm extended) is part of the 350-460 series and that it has an apple green Sovereign 350 back. For the avoidance of doubt, you think it's actually part of the 350-only series? If that were the case, shouldn't it have a forest green Sovereign 350 back like other 350-only subjects, instead of apple green?

I thought we both agreed that subjects with apple green Sovereign 350 backs are part of the 350-460 series, no?

Jon

American Litho's original design intention appears to have been 66 subjects to be extended from the 350 Series to the 350/460 Series....as illustrated in my simulated sheet:

v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v

However, three of the subjects' careers ended (bold lettering); therefore, these guys were not continued into the 350/460 Series ......

Joe Doyle........................traded to Cinci.(May 1910); career ends June 25, 1910
Red Kleinow (NY)..............traded to Boston May 1910
Simon Nicholls (bat)..........traded to Clev (spring 1910); career ends May 1910
Bob Rhoades (right arm extended)......career ends Summer of 1909
Frank Smith (white cap).....traded to Boston in the Summer of 1910.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

HobokenJon · #3 03-22-2022, 05:53 PM

OK. I'm satisfied we can leave it at that, since this discussion seems now to be more about theory and personal preference for how to label a given subject.

I do believe this discussion underscores the usefulness of the "print group" framework, so as to create a common language among Monster collectors and avoid confusion. Except for the super prints, I would refer to all of the cards with apple green Sovereign 350 backs as either Print Group 3 or series 350-460. I wouldn't refer to any apple green Sovereign 350 as part of Print Group 2 or the 350-only series. But hey, if you want to call them that, who am I to stop you? ... But I may have a few questions so I can understand where you're coming from.

tedzan · #4 03-22-2022, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HobokenJon

OK. I'm satisfied we can leave it at that, since this discussion seems now to be more about theory and personal preference for how to label a given subject.

I do believe this discussion underscores the usefulness of the "print group" framework, so as to create a common language among Monster collectors and avoid confusion. Except for the super prints, I would refer to all of the cards with apple green Sovereign 350 backs as either Print Group 3 or series 350-460. I wouldn't refer to any apple green Sovereign 350 as part of Print Group 2 or the 350-only series. But hey, if you want to call them that, who am I to stop you? ... But I may have a few questions so I can understand where you're coming from.

"Theory and personal preference"....back in 2006 - 2007, there was confusion regarding the make-up of the T206 SOVEREIGN set on Net54. And, this was one of the factors
which motivated me to put this set together. In my one year adventure of arriving at a complete basic 402-subject set, I developed certain THEORIES of how American Litho
produced these cards (series by series). Especially, in figuring out which subjects were NOT PRINTED. Yes that result was just one of my theories. But, you know what guys ?
All my theories have withstood the test of time (15 years).
I attribute this partially as to how I arrange my T206's. Four of my 5 sets of T206's are arranged according to the 6 series in the set (150-only, 150/350, 350-only, 350/460,
460-only, and the Southern Leaguers.
The so-called "print group" framework is at best a confusing system, which does not allow you to clearly understand the complexity of The Monster.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

parkerj33 · #5 03-24-2022, 03:01 PM

T-Rex Teddy,

Just to clarify my understanding, I *think* you are saying that the Rhoades is "effectively" a 350-only subject just like Nichols and Doyle, but was intended to be a 350/460 subject. Hence, all three have apple green sovereign backs and NOT forest-green backs.

So they are accidental exceptions to the rule that apple green is only on 350/460 series, because AmerLith made an audible to cancel them early.

I hope this makes sense and doesn't make things worse!

tedzan · #6 03-24-2022, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parkerj33

T-Rex Teddy,

Just to clarify my understanding, I *think* you are saying that the Rhoades is "effectively" a 350-only subject just like Nichols and Doyle, but was intended to be a 350/460 subject. Hence, all three have apple green sovereign backs and NOT forest-green backs.

So they are accidental exceptions to the rule that apple green is only on 350/460 series, because AmerLith made an audible to cancel them early.

I hope this makes sense and doesn't make things worse!

Jim

You always make good sense my friend. And, I love your use of the NFL term (an audible). Jim....you made my day

Rhoades (right arm extended) is absolutely a 350-only subject.

What I don't understand is....why American Lithographic even considered extending Rhoades into the 350/460 Series ?
Rhoades had ended his MLB career back in the Summer of 1909.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Pat R · #7 03-24-2022, 06:20 PM

The confusion about if a card is a 350 only or not is one of the reasons I bumped the print group thread it explains the cards being discussed in this thread.

https://www.t206resource.com/Print%20Group%201.html

https://www.t206resource.com/Print%20Group%202.html

https://www.t206resource.com/Print%20Group%203.html

https://www.t206resource.com/Print%2...Checklist.html

https://www.t206resource.com/Print%2...Checklist.html

Once you understand them you can see why Dahlen Brooklyn is one of the 28 subjects found with a factory 30 sheet number, he's in the same print group as the other 27 subjects.
img706.jpg

parkerj33 · #8 03-25-2022, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jim

You always make good sense my friend. And, I love your use of the NFL term (an audible). Jim....you made my day

Rhoades (right arm extended) is absolutely a 350-only subject.

What I don't understand is....why American Lithographic even considered extending Rhoades into the 350/460 Series ?
Rhoades had ended his MLB career back in the Summer of 1909.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Thanks Ted. I am also surmising that what Pat is saying is that the print group concept helps to explain how a card might be effectively a 350-only, but was printed alongside other cards that were part of 350/460 series.

I think this is where there is a difference of theories, but they are still compatible.......you would say that all 350 only's were printed together, whereas pat would suggest that a few of the 350 only's were really printed alongside other 350/460 subjects...and they just got audibled out of existence in the backs that would have made them 350/460s.

I use the term "effectively" to account for the concept that it was supposed to be a 350/460 in the planning, but got changed at the last minute. So in reality (aka "in effect") it only exists as a 350 subject, but was printed (initially) by "intention" as if it was going to be a 350/460 subject. The semantics/wording here is critical.

Regardless, it remains curious why AL would even consider him for 350/460...maybe they just wanted to round out their sheets and blindly continued him on, and then someone smarter figured out this guy doesn't even play anymore! Hanlon's razor: Never assign to malice that which can be explained by ignorance!

I clearly enjoy trying to make sense of this stuff...

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