Dave Parker - HOF?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by G1911

Actually, no he's absolutely not. Belle is not in the top half, the no brainers that there is a consensus on among the vast majority. Belle is not in this group.

WAR:
Cobb 151.5
Williams 122
Carlton 90.2
Perry 90
Belle 40.1

He had great rate stats and a very, very short career. Just like Dick Allen, he's right on the edge, and his off the field record is helping keep him on the barely out side instead of the barely in side. He played only 10 real seasons, he has none of the milestones, 0 of his counting stats are hall of fame worthy when put into the extreme offensive context of his era.

Sandy Koufax has none of the milestones. Addie Joss has none of the milestones. Kirby Puckett has none of the milestones.

The HOF asks for 10 seasons. Belle played 10 full ones and parts of 2 others. in 1995, Belle had 103 extra-base hits, the first player in 47 years to top 100 XBH in a single season. And he did it in a shortened season. 3 years later, he nearly did it again with 99. His numbers are *ridiculous*. Belle was outstanding or better in 9 of his 10 full seasons and was still good (OPS+ of 109) his final year limping around with a retirement-inducing injury.

If the argument is that his character should keep him out - but somehow not Ty Cobb (who went into the stands and beat up a fan) or Cap Anson or any of the other myriad bad characters in MLB history - so be it.

If the argument is that he cheated and that should keep him out - but not Gaylord Perry or Tony LaRussa (who benefitted from cheaters) - so be it.

But there's no argument that he wasn't good enough as a player other than "well, gee, he didn't play long enough because of a career-ending injury". And people only had that against him because they don't like him, as opposed to a guy like Sandy Koufax or Kirby Puckett. And, in Puckett's case, they just ignore the multiple negative incidents involving him because, hey, he smiled a lot on the field.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Sandy Koufax has none of the milestones. Addie Joss has none of the milestones. Kirby Puckett has none of the milestones.

The HOF asks for 10 seasons. Belle played 10 full ones and parts of 2 others. in 1995, Belle had 103 extra-base hits, the first player in 47 years to top 100 XBH in a single season. And he did it in a shortened season. 3 years later, he nearly did it again with 99. His numbers are *ridiculous*. Belle was outstanding or better in 9 of his 10 full seasons and was still good (OPS+ of 109) his final year limping around with a retirement-inducing injury.

If the argument is that his character should keep him out - but somehow not Ty Cobb (who went into the stands and beat up a fan) or Cap Anson or any of the other myriad bad characters in MLB history - so be it.

If the argument is that he cheated and that should keep him out - but not Gaylord Perry or Tony LaRussa (who benefitted from cheaters) - so be it.

But there's no argument that he wasn't good enough as a player other than "well, gee, he didn't play long enough because of a career-ending injury". And people only had that against him because they don't like him, as opposed to a guy like Sandy Koufax or Kirby Puckett. And, in Puckett's case, they just ignore the multiple negative incidents involving him because, hey, he smiled a lot on the field.

See post 208 where I said I think he should be in. He is very clearly not in the top group of no brainers though; like the 4 named players who all produced more than double his value. Puckett and Joss are also both low end players and Puckett is often criticized as an electee on here. Koufax possesses some magical charm over a large segment of baseball fandom that makes rational analysis all but impossible (see the 10,000 mega thread). Arguing that he belongs alongside the bottom of the hall like Puckett and Joss is exactly where I ranked him.

I never endorsed the view that his personal conduct SHOULD keep him out; I said it IS a factor in him being out. There are many things that are true that I do not think should be true; being cognizant of the later is not to endorse the former.

[shagrotn77]

If Albert Belle’s career was measured purely on stats, he would have been a first-ballot HOFer. No doubt.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by G1911

See post 208 where I said I think he should be in. He is very clearly not in the top group of no brainers though; like the 4 named players who all produced more than double his value.

Those four weren't named because they were no-brainers - they were named because the possessed the same "character issues" for which Belle is penalized by some.

Originally Posted by G1911

Puckett and Joss are also both low end players and Puckett is often criticized as an electee on here. Koufax possesses some magical charm over a large segment of baseball fandom that makes rational analysis all but impossible (see the 10,000 mega thread). Arguing that he belongs alongside the bottom of the hall like Puckett and Joss is exactly where I ranked him.

Obviously Belle would be not an inner circle HOFer if he were elected. His shortened career eliminates that. Having said that, his numbers when he was playing ARE inner circle elite - when you average more homers and as many RBI per 162 games as Ted Williams, while playing your entire career in an integrated league with flamethrower relievers, you ARE elite.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Those four weren't named because they were no-brainers - they were named because the possessed the same "character issues" for which Belle is penalized by some.

Obviously Belle would be not an inner circle HOFer if he were elected. His shortened career eliminates that. Having said that, his numbers when he was playing ARE inner circle elite - when you average more homers and as many RBI per 162 games as Ted Williams, while playing your entire career in an integrated league with flamethrower relievers, you ARE elite.

I am well aware they weren't named because they were no brainers. I never said that was why they were named. See post 205 again. What I said was that top-tier guys like Carlton, Perry, Cobb and Ted Williams who are far and away obviously hall of famers, who are not kept out for being unlikable or throwing a spitball. Marginal hall of famers may or may not be kept out, Dick Allen and Albert Belle are marginal hall of famers close to the border. It is hard to prove this is why they are out.

Belle's issues are certainly more severe than being unpopular with the press (Carlton, Williams) or throwing a spitball (Perry). Belle's problems include similar things like a corked bat and being a surly dick, but he also was convicted of stalking a woman, charged with indecent exposure, and caught a case for assaulting a child.

As for your 2nd paragraph, it seems we agree and there's nothing to debate? I wouldn't compare raw values in the 90's AL to raw values in the 40's and 50's, but it doesn't seem to change the calculation much.