Pwcc Csg partnership

Peter_Spaeth · #1 04-29-2022, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Blowout made the best case, I think. Some of those guys dedicated insane hours to proving it beyond any doubt, over and over and over again.

But anyways, everything is fine and it's the people complaining about criminal fraud that are the problem.

From day one, there has been a huge amount of cognitive dissonance over pervasive hobby fraud.

Carter08 · #2 04-29-2022, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

From day one, there has been a huge amount of cognitive dissonance over pervasive hobby fraud.

Agree. That�s my point. Seems like there is a blind eye to a lot of it. Newbie but there�s a lot out there to read.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 04-29-2022, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

Agree. That�s my point. Seems like there is a blind eye to a lot of it. Newbie but there�s a lot out there to read.

If anything IMO, the blind eye has been towards Brent/PWCC. For years, people defended them.

G1911 · #4 04-29-2022, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

Agree. That�s my point. Seems like there is a blind eye to a lot of it. Newbie but there�s a lot out there to read.

Do you have any evidence that PWCC has been falsely accused of their thousands of incidents of fraud?

Do you have any evidence a major seller, auction house, or hobby figure is engaged in fraud as widespread or serious as PWCC?

I'm not sure what your point is with your third objection of this thread to people pointing out PWCC's felonious history. You seem to keep implying that other people are guilty of the same or worse. Can you name them?

Carter08 · #5 04-29-2022, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Do you have any evidence that PWCC has been falsely accused of their thousands of incidents of fraud?

Do you have any evidence a major seller, auction house, or hobby figure is engaged in fraud as widespread or serious as PWCC?

I'm not sure what your point is with your third objection of this thread to people pointing out PWCC's felonious history. You seem to keep implying that other people are guilty of the same or worse. Can you name them?

Not sure if you�re serious - REA, Goldin, back to Mastro, etc. All and more have been accused.

G1911 · #6 04-29-2022, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

Not sure if you�re serious - REA, Goldin, back to Mastro, etc. All and more have been accused.

Yes they�ve all been accused, and all have done things. Mastro went to jail even. Mastro and Goldin are talked about frequently in the hobby. Guilty as they are neither have been caught altering as many cards as PWCC, the most publicly documented one. I don�t get your thesis. Because Mastro was scamming 20 years ago we shouldn�t talk about PWCC�s fraud ring today?

Frankish · #7 04-29-2022, 07:56 PM

That's a very convenient service. Sounds like PWCC negotiated a great deal. If you were planning to get a card graded and send it to PWCC for auction, it's very compelling.

Obviously, if you wouldn't work with PWCC it doesn't matter one way or the other.

But since it has become increasingly difficult to find places to consign/auction raw cards, I could see this opening up a lot of new business for them....

Aquarian Sports Cards · #8 04-29-2022, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankish

But since it has become increasingly difficult to find places to consign/auction raw cards, I could see this opening up a lot of new business for them....

It is very easy to find places to consign raw cards that need to be graded. Basically everyone will do that for you.

On a personal note, we sell thousands of raw cards every auction.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 04-29-2022, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes they�ve all been accused, and all have done things. Mastro went to jail even. Mastro and Goldin are talked about frequently in the hobby. Guilty as they are neither have been caught altering as many cards as PWCC, the most publicly documented one. I don�t get your thesis. Because Mastro was scamming 20 years ago we shouldn�t talk about PWCC�s fraud ring today?

You're the logician. There's a logical fallacy in saying everyone has been accused of something therefore they're all the same, but I can't immediately identify it. A form of black and white thinking?

Carter08 · #10 04-29-2022, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're the logician. There's a logical fallacy in saying everyone has been accused of something therefore they're all the same, but I can't immediately identify it. A form of black and white thinking?

That�s sort of what I think you all are doing. My thinking is pwcc is far from the sole or maybe even the main bad actor. Oh well. Be good, god bless, etc.

G1911 · #11 04-29-2022, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're the logician. There's a logical fallacy in saying everyone has been accused of something therefore they're all the same, but I can't immediately identify it. A form of black and white thinking?

I think in this case it is the black and white fallacy (false dichotomy) then producing a false equivalence. The false premise that there are only 2 options, when there are actually more, resulting in an argument where the either/or thinking produces a false equivalence at the end.

"1) Auctioneers are either innocent or guilty.

2) Mastro/REA/Goldin are guilty.

3) PWCC is guilty.

4) Therefore Mastro and PWCC are equal and the same".

But I ain't a logician, I'm just a smartass with a copy of Aristotle

Exhibitman · #12 05-01-2022, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're the logician. There's a logical fallacy in saying everyone has been accused of something therefore they're all the same, but I can't immediately identify it. A form of black and white thinking?

It's the speeding ticket thing. "But officer, others were speeding too" is not a defense to the ticket. The fact that others maybe committed bad acts is not a justification for your bad acts. Mastro, Allen, et al. were criminals. Their criminality is not cover for others' wrongdoing. The evidence of PWCC running a shill bidding operation and profiting from trimmed cards is overwhelming, and no one else's bad acts can justify theirs. Like The Clash sang:

You're minding your own business
Carrying spare change
You wouldn't cosh a barber
You're hungry all the same
I been very tempted
To grab it from the till
I been very hungry
But not enough to kill

You either do bad things or you don't, period, and if you do, anyone helping is an accessory. Enablers grease the machinery of wrongdoing. Like the guy installing plumbing on the Death Star. Never lifted a gun, or hurt a soul, just went to work every day installing toilets, until he was blown up. Tragic? Nope. Without his work, the genocidal Grand Moff Tarkin has nowhere to drop a deuce. In this case, despite the abundant information about its new partner, CSG management has decided to get in bed with PWCC and help that enterprise prosper. CSG deserves scorn and a consumer boycott.

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