1989 Fleer Randy Johnson #381 Marlboro Errors - 30 Years Later

steve5838 · #1 05-10-2022, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

1st in the sub had "ad blacked out" note

2nd in the sub had "ad on scoreboard" note

Sent the correction request for the 1st one and PSA changed them both to "ad partially obscured" which suggests to me that they felt confused by them and took a lazy way out. I emailed in reply to their "we have reviewed your requet" email and they have not updated them. Order has since moved to assembly.

This sounds awful but similar to experiences I've had getting these graded. Did they ever revise the labels after receiving your email? I hope it worked out for you.

jacksoncoupage · #2 05-10-2022, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve5838

This sounds awful but similar to experiences I've had getting these graded. Did they ever revise the labels after receiving your email? I hope it worked out for you.

No reply to the email. Order moved to QA2 five or six days ago. Looks like they are committing to them. I will probably try again once they are in hand.

I have another 6-7 (various visibility of letting and cowboy) ready to go but hesitate due to the fact that buyers seem to be purchasing the slab regardless of accuracy. A �partially� notation is a loss of death if you�re looking to sell.

Statfreak101 · #3 05-11-2022, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

No reply to the email. Order moved to QA2 five or six days ago. Looks like they are committing to them. I will probably try again once they are in hand.

I have another 6-7 (various visibility of letting and cowboy) ready to go but hesitate due to the fact that buyers seem to be purchasing the slab regardless of accuracy. A �partially� notation is a loss of death if you�re looking to sell.

I am dealing with a similar situation/timeline - just had an order move to Q1 recently that includes 7 Marlboro Randy's - all of which I disputed as an error when they came back "Ad Partially Obscured."

No luck in them revising the labeling either...can't wait to get these back in hand, and then find some recent ones that have been floating around out there that say ad visible that are actually less visible than the ones they have of mine.

steve5838 · #4 05-11-2022, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Statfreak101

I am dealing with a similar situation/timeline - just had an order move to Q1 recently that includes 7 Marlboro Randy's - all of which I disputed as an error when they came back "Ad Partially Obscured."

No luck in them revising the labeling either...can't wait to get these back in hand, and then find some recent ones that have been floating around out there that say ad visible that are actually less visible than the ones they have of mine.

The only versions I've had luck getting PSA to change their initial labeling decision on are the br2 and rg2 versions (possibly the gr2 version as well but I can't recall offhand). They have never changed the initial label designation for me on other versions. That said, I have bought br2 and rg2 versions that were "incorrectly" labeled Ad Partially Obscured on EBay and PSA has agreed the labeling is a Mech Err and relabeled them for me as Ad on Scoreboard (free of charge and very quickly). Also, I've had some luck submitting one obvious Ad Partially Obscured card at the same time I submit several Ad on Scoreboard cards. We shouldn't have to re-teach the PSA graders about this card like this every time we submit for grading but I guess that is what it has come to...

Hatorade · #5 05-23-2022, 08:13 PM

With these responses you would think that PSA just makes up which label they apply. It seemed that way to me too, so I figured I would email PSA to ask how they determine which version they label the card.

1989 Fleer Randy Johnson #381

I'm interested in getting my collection of 1989 Fleer Randy Johnson cards graded, but I wanted to make sure I send the cards in labeled correctly. I have several variations of the cards ranging from the ad being very noticeable through the completely blacked out and not noticeable. I've seen several versions of PSA graded cards listed with no description, Ad on Scoreboard, Ad Partially Obscured, Complete Black Out and Completely Blacked Out as a description on the card. Can you please let me know what guidelines PSA uses to determine what you label as an Ad On Scoreboard, Ad Partially Obscured or some of the other descriptions. Thanks for your help.

PSA responded with this email:

�In regards to your question on varieties for the 1989 Fleer Randy Johnson #381, there are only 3 versions: Marlboro Ad, Ad partially obscured and Ad completely blacked-out. Our research department has seen all three numerous times. The first is clear, second is dim but still legible and the third cannot be read as �Marlboro� at all. We use the descriptions that the Standard Catalog provides.�

I tried to find the definition in the Standard Catalog to see what it said but I wasn�t able to ever come across it.

So, PSA has very vague and ambiguous definitions that they use combined with a completely random application of their standards when reviewing the cards.

If no one, including PSA, knows the difference between Ad on Scoreboard, Ad Partially Obscured and Ad Completely Blacked Out then why do they consistently sell for such different prices?

steve5838 · #6 05-24-2022, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatorade

With these responses you would think that PSA just makes up which label they apply. It seemed that way to me too, so I figured I would email PSA to ask how they determine which version they label the card.

1989 Fleer Randy Johnson #381

I'm interested in getting my collection of 1989 Fleer Randy Johnson cards graded, but I wanted to make sure I send the cards in labeled correctly. I have several variations of the cards ranging from the ad being very noticeable through the completely blacked out and not noticeable. I've seen several versions of PSA graded cards listed with no description, Ad on Scoreboard, Ad Partially Obscured, Complete Black Out and Completely Blacked Out as a description on the card. Can you please let me know what guidelines PSA uses to determine what you label as an Ad On Scoreboard, Ad Partially Obscured or some of the other descriptions. Thanks for your help.

PSA responded with this email:

“In regards to your question on varieties for the 1989 Fleer Randy Johnson #381, there are only 3 versions: Marlboro Ad, Ad partially obscured and Ad completely blacked-out. Our research department has seen all three numerous times. The first is clear, second is dim but still legible and the third cannot be read as “Marlboro” at all. We use the descriptions that the Standard Catalog provides.”

I tried to find the definition in the Standard Catalog to see what it said but I wasn’t able to ever come across it.

So, PSA has very vague and ambiguous definitions that they use combined with a completely random application of their standards when reviewing the cards.

If no one, including PSA, knows the difference between Ad on Scoreboard, Ad Partially Obscured and Ad Completely Blacked Out then why do they consistently sell for such different prices?

This is very interesting. I think the problem is that PSA hasn't defined a stable baseline for their comparison. I wish they would provide an example of what they mean by "clear". Right now they seem to be using relative clarity instead of absolute clarity when determining which label to use and this is causing a lot of inconsistencies. Imagine the grader looks online and sees a picture of one of the handful of clear ones out there. Now, looking at the definitions for their three labels he would give any br2, rg2, gr2 a label of Partially Obscured (since these are dim but still legible relative to the no-tint clear one they saw online). However, if someone sent in a br2 and a rg3 for grading I bet the grader immediately sees the difference in sign clarity between the two and gives the former the Ad on Scoreboard label (since it is relatively clear) and the later Ad Partially Obscured (since in comparison it is dim but still legible). The recent increase in clear card pictures online has changed what was previously a semi-stable baseline of "clear" on their scale and made things worse.
At a minimum I really do think there should be at least one new label description (at the beginning of PSA's scale) for "no tint".

jacksoncoupage · #7 06-02-2022, 07:46 PM

https://www.ebay.com/itm/30445003074...p2047675.l2557

Interesting sale. I tried several times, on a few forums, I believe, to point out this variation but most replies seemed to think that it is was just me unable to catch the boxed sign but I have definitely pulled my copy out more than once and thoroughly examined it under different light sources and concluded it is a fully flush blackout over the area.

Sadly, rare or not, it will likely never catch on as a "must have" among the varieties but this certainly has to be among the tougher transitional versions being so close to the final one and with so few samples having turned up (unless I missed some, which is highly likely).

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