Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

BobC · #1 05-15-2022, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Your third paragraph is fallacious reasoning. There is clear hobby consensus, and even PSA's terms and conditions admit, that trimming and recoloring are unacceptable alteration. It's irrelevant that there are other things people don't agree on. Slippery slope fallacy. Assuming the evidence supported it, a jury could easily find that the knowing sale without disclosure of a trimmed card was fraud. There are detailed discussions of this by me and others from early in the scandal. I don't have the energy or motivation to find them.

What clear hobby consensus? There are some people that are all for restoration, and very many others that allow, or at least put up with, various other forms of alterations or doctoring. Hell, the very first card ever graded by PSA, and what is likely to become the most valuable card ever sold once again, next time it gets sold, is a known altered/trimmed card in a PSA 8 holder. What do you honestly think PSA would do should its current owner come back to them with the Gretzky Wagner, and ask that it be re-holdered?

We have been discussing for years how the grading standards and measures of TPGs are not the same, and how they keep changing over the years. All you'd have to do is grab different graded cards of different TPGs over the years, and show them to a jury for themselves to decide if what was graded as a 4 on different cards actually looks the same to them. And remember, chances of an actual card collector being allowed to stay on a jury by the defense is slim to none, at best. For criminal prosecution the standard is still to my knowledge " beyond a reasonable doubt". You, my friend, may be a little biased because of your own card collecting background and knowledge, and assume a jury will be of somewhat comparable thinking and experience. I'm going to guess they won't. And once they start hearing about all the different companies, graders, issues, etc., there are likely going to be a lot of doubts creeping into their minds.

I could go back and look for your own words in various posts, but let me paraphrase what I believe you yourself have stated in the past, knowing someone is guilty is one thing, but you can't always prove it in a court of law.

As I look at it, I'm afraid that the only way we may finally get someone convicted of a crime in all this fraud is if law enforcement and prosecutors can actually get someone directly involved in it to flip and testify against others directly involved. The participants that may, or may not, be involved in such fraud are not stupid though, and I doubt they would voluntarily turn on each other at this point. Unless they can get nailed for something else and only see making a deal with prosecutors as a way out by basically turning states evidence. As of now, it doesn't look like that is happening though.

Along those lines, I believe I remember reading elsewhere on this forum that Brent from PWCC was initially cooperating with investigators on the alteration/trimming fraud case. And then suddenly, he was not anymore. If actually true, that is a very interesting and intriguing development, don't you think? In potential cases like this, involving multiple companies and people, sometimes learning to say nothing is the best defense of all. There's an awful lot of truth to the old adage that ignorance (or at least the projection of such) is bliss!

Peter_Spaeth · #2 05-15-2022, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

What clear hobby consensus? There are some people that are all for restoration, and very many others that allow, or at least put up with, various other forms of alterations or doctoring. Hell, the very first card ever graded by PSA, and what is likely to become the most valuable card ever sold once again, next time it gets sold, is a known altered/trimmed card in a PSA 8 holder. What do you honestly think PSA would do should its current owner come back to them with the Gretzky Wagner, and ask that it be re-holdered?

We have been discussing for years how the grading standards and measures of TPGs are not the same, and how they keep changing over the years. All you'd have to do is grab different graded cards of different TPGs over the years, and show them to a jury for themselves to decide if what was graded as a 4 on different cards actually looks the same to them. And remember, chances of an actual card collector being allowed to stay on a jury by the defense is slim to none, at best. For criminal prosecution the standard is still to my knowledge " beyond a reasonable doubt". You, my friend, may be a little biased because of your own card collecting background and knowledge, and assume a jury will be of somewhat comparable thinking and experience. I'm going to guess they won't. And once they start hearing about all the different companies, graders, issues, etc., there are likely going to be a lot of doubts creeping into their minds.

I could go back and look for your own words in various posts, but let me paraphrase what I believe you yourself have stated in the past, knowing someone is guilty is one thing, but you can't always prove it in a court of law.

As I look at it, I'm afraid that the only way we may finally get someone convicted of a crime in all this fraud is if law enforcement and prosecutors can actually get someone directly involved in it to flip and testify against others directly involved. The participants that may, or may not, be involved in such fraud are not stupid though, and I doubt they would voluntarily turn on each other at this point. Unless they can get nailed for something else and only see making a deal with prosecutors as a way out by basically turning states evidence. As of now, it doesn't look like that is happening though.

Along those lines, I believe I remember reading elsewhere on this forum that Brent from PWCC was initially cooperating with investigators on the alteration/trimming fraud case. And then suddenly, he was not anymore. If actually true, that is a very interesting and intriguing development, don't you think? In potential cases like this, involving multiple companies and people, sometimes learning to say nothing is the best defense of all. There's an awful lot of truth to the old adage that ignorance (or at least the projection of such) is bliss!

Brent was definitely cooperating at one point, as acknowledged by his counsel at the time.

On another point, yes it's difficult to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt under the rules of evidence in many cases even where the person is guilty, but in this case that wouldn't be because of any doubt that trimming is an impermissible alteration, on that point I would not be troubled. It would clearly be a material omission not to disclose a card is trimmed. You don't need an absolute consensus to establish that anyhow.

BobC · #3 05-15-2022, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Brent was definitely cooperating at one point, as acknowledged by his counsel at the time.

On another point, yes it's difficult to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt under the rules of evidence in many cases even where the person is guilty, but in this case that wouldn't be because of any doubt that trimming is an impermissible alteration, on that point I would not be troubled. It would clearly be a material omission not to disclose a card is trimmed. You don't need an absolute consensus to establish that anyhow.

I know, and I'm with you, but if the trimming is such that the TPG doesn't catch it (or says they didn't), it is kind of like money laundering now that the card resides in a respected and trusted TPG's holder. These TPGs have put forth that they are the experts, and based on the kind of money thrown at them to grade cards and the premiums cards in certain TPG holders seem to bring over raw and other graded cards in the hobby, it sure seems like they are considered the be-all and end-all experts. So, unless some card doctor comes forth and actually admits he/she submitted an altered/trimmed card to a TPG that they then mistakenly graded, you aren't likely going to be able to convict the card doctor of anything. By mistakenly encapsulation an altered/trimmed card, the TPG hobby expert has effectively opined and said the card was good. So who else do you bring in to court to testify against an accepted hobby expert? I'm not so sure the BODA/Blowout guys would be automatically afforded the same level of respect and expertise acceptance in a court of law in front of a jury as the TPGs who actually have people paying them for their work and opinions. And if you do find and bring in a different TPG to testify against them:

1. Now the jury is going to see that the supposed TPG experts actually don't appear to all have or follow the same grading standards and measures (unless the TPG being testified against is suddenly willing to admit they blew it and made a mistake).

2. Now you've set a precedent of one TPG testifying against another, which could end up backfiring down the road if the two TPGs ever find their positions switched in some future case. I can easily see one TPG agreeing to testify against another as revenge for testimony that was previously given against them.

conor912 · #4 05-15-2022, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

And remember, chances of an actual card collector being allowed to stay on a jury by the defense is slim to none, at best.

They should make the entire jury card collectors...let the hobby decide how criminal something is!

BobC · #5 05-16-2022, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conor912

They should make the entire jury card collectors...let the hobby decide how criminal something is!

Don't disagree at all, but that is exactly why a defense lawyer/team will never let it happen.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 05-16-2022, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Don't disagree at all, but that is exactly why a defense lawyer/team will never let it happen.

Relative to the general population there aren't that many collectors. I would bet the odds of even one showing up in a typical jury pool are pretty low.

BobC · #7 05-16-2022, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Relative to the general population there aren't that many collectors. I would bet the odds of even one showing up in a typical jury pool are pretty low.

Absolutely agree. But even if one collector did somehow get into the jury pool, the defense would make sure to keep them off the jury. They don't want a situation like the one juror that got on Ghislaine Maxwell's jury by supposedly not honestly or mistakenly answering a jury questionnaire about abuse experiences, and then supposedly saying things to sway other jurors during the deliberations.

As you've said before, proving guilt on something like this in a court of law is anything but easy.

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