Ryan and run support

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Pitchers who pitched almost as long as Ryan and had similar ERA+

Tommy John -26 years & 111 ERA+
Jim Kaat-25 years & 108 ERA+
Charlie Hough-25 years & 106 ERA+
Dennis Martinez-23 years & 106 ERA+

Its not phenomenal, its borderline HOF worthy. Before anyone misinterprets what I'm saying, I'm not saying Ryan is borderline HOF but his ERA+ is.

Just as a comparison
Tom Seaver-20 years & 127 ERA+

You list guys who had the years, but nowhere near the innings pitched.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

You list guys who had the years, but nowhere near the innings pitched.

In G1911's original post, his point was that Ryan did it over 27 years. No mention was made of innings.

But OK, Phil Niekro had more innings pitched than Ryan 5404 to 5386, Niekro had a higher ERA+ than Ryan 115 to 112. I've never seen anyone claim Niekro was an all time great.

[ClementeFanOh]

Jim65- the mania continues, eh? My handy dandy internet research reveals
that fifty-eight players have made HOF on first ballot. That's 58 out of
thousands upon thousands of players. Like it or not, Nolan Ryan is one of
those and he IS an "all time great". Doesn't mean he's the greatest, but "all
time great" definitely fits. You, sir, "doth protest too much".

I'll admit you've hooked me. Your factual argument is a non starter, so the
only reason you keep dinging Ryan is some sort of dislike. Did he tune up
your favorite player or team? Bean you during fantasy camp? You a Robin
Ventura fan? At this point, an explanation of your crusade is more
compelling than a failed argument. How'd he hurt you?

Trent King

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Jim65- the mania continues, eh? My handy dandy internet research reveals
that fifty-eight players have made HOF on first ballot. That's 58 out of
thousands upon thousands of players. Like it or not, Nolan Ryan is one of
those and he IS an "all time great". Doesn't mean he's the greatest, but "all
time great" definitely fits. You, sir, "doth protest too much".

I'll admit you've hooked me. Your factual argument is a non starter, so the
only reason you keep dinging Ryan is some sort of dislike. Did he tune up
your favorite player or team? Bean you during fantasy camp? You a Robin
Ventura fan? At this point, an explanation of your crusade is more
compelling than a failed argument. How'd he hurt you?

Trent King

You're right, I hate Nolan Ryan. He's the greatest pitcher who ever lived. Feel better?

[ClementeFanOh]

Jim65- I feel better knowing you just punted. Trent King

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Jim65- I feel better knowing you just punted. Trent King

Because dealing with condescending people is tiresome . You win, go brag to your friends. You da man.

[ClementeFanOh]

Jim- well, you'd know tiresome for sure, so you've got that going for you.

Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

In G1911's original post, his point was that Ryan did it over 27 years. No mention was made of innings.

But OK, Phil Niekro had more innings pitched than Ryan 5404 to 5386, Niekro had a higher ERA+ than Ryan 115 to 112. I've never seen anyone claim Niekro was an all time great.

I think my point was that he was effective for an absurdly long career. Years, innings, by any definition Ryan had the or one of the longest pitching careers in all of baseball history. If you want to get technical you couldn’t name a single one who matched 27 years. Maybe that’s a sign of being extraordinary, doing something no one else has.

Phil Niekro had a phenomenal (remarkable, extraordinary) career too, with a very unusual trajectory and path. His remarkable career is probably why he is in the Hall of Fame and being remarked upon. If he did not have a phenomenal career, then almost no one did. Who are we to remark on if even these guys are not remarkable? If these are not extraordinary careers, I’m hard pressed to think of any that are.

In my opinion Nolan Ryan is probably the most overrated starting pitcher in the entirety of baseball history. But he still had a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary and unique career.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think my point was that he was effective for an absurdly long career. Years, innings, by any definition Ryan had the or one of the longest pitching careers in all of baseball history. If you want to get technical you couldn’t name a single one who matched 27 years. Maybe that’s a sign of being extraordinary, doing something no one else has.

Phil Niekro had a phenomenal (remarkable, extraordinary) career too, with a very unusual trajectory and path. His remarkable career is probably why he is in the Hall of Fame and being remarked upon. If he did not have a phenomenal career, then almost no one did. Who are we to remark on if even these guys are not remarkable? If these are not extraordinary careers, I’m hard pressed to think of any that are.

In my opinion Nolan Ryan is probably the most overrated starting pitcher in the entirety of baseball history. But he still had a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary and unique career.

My post wasn't a jab at Niekro, Niekro was better at preventing runs than Ryan, and he wasn't a 1st ballot HOFer.

For a guy who had all those strikeouts, no-hitters, fewest hits per 9 innings, etc, Ryan should have been better at preventing runs than he was.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

My post wasn't a jab at Niekro, Niekro was better at preventing runs than Ryan, and he wasn't a 1st ballot HOFer.

For a guy who had all those strikeouts, no-hitters, fewest hits per 9 innings, etc, Ryan should have been better at preventing runs than he was.

I agree. His walks and inability to control the ball well reduced his effectiveness. If he had control he might have been the greatest pitcher ever. I don’t think that’s a reasonable baseline to judge on though - ‘he could have been better’. So could everyone. I never said he was perfect. He had a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary and unique career.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree. His walks and inability to control the ball well reduced his effectiveness. If he had control he might have been the greatest pitcher ever. I don’t think that’s a reasonable baseline to judge on though - ‘he could have been better’. So could everyone. I never said he was perfect. He had a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary and unique career.

Of course everyone could be better, but Ryan should have been better. With his stuff and desire, he should have been a Top 5 all time pitcher.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Of course everyone could be better, but Ryan should have been better. With his stuff and desire, he should have been a Top 5 all time pitcher.

And yet he ended up with a phenomenal, remarkable, extraordinary career.