Gun ownership poll

JustinD · #1 07-21-2022, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deertick

There is a reason that it is a very popular firearm for enthusiasts and mass shooters alike. For the mass shooters, I don't know whether it is because it is ubiquitous, or the best bang for the buck.

I have seen a few posts in which you have extended a fallacy that AR-15 type designed rifles are the choice of mass shooters or "ubiquitous" as just said now.

This is in no way true and I am sure you can find no proof of this over the past 20 years as handguns outnumber that statistic by a rather large margin (roughly 3 to 1). You have fallen for assumption, please research that number than go off thoughts. Also, understand that FBI statistics lump all shootings under the rifle category, which includes black rifles into the same number as any other rifle...thus that number is indeed much lower than the 3 to 1.

I am assuming you just are parroting things you have heard, so I am trying to help your statements become at least truthful in your defense.

This is why banning "assault" rifles is called a slope. It will not make much of an effect and then when the item that really is the greater use is noted it will be the new villain. And the beat goes on.

ALR-bishop · #2 07-21-2022, 02:36 PM

bnorth · #3 07-21-2022, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

LOL now that is funny. PS invite me because that sounds fun.

cgjackson222 · #4 07-21-2022, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinD

I have seen a few posts in which you have extended a fallacy that AR-15 type designed rifles are the choice of mass shooters or "ubiquitous" as just said now.

This is in no way true and I am sure you can find no proof of this over the past 20 years as handguns outnumber that statistic by a rather large margin (roughly 3 to 1). You have fallen for assumption, please research that number than go off thoughts. Also, understand that FBI statistics lump all shootings under the rifle category, which includes black rifles into the same number as any other rifle...thus that number is indeed much lower than the 3 to 1.

I am assuming you just are parroting things you have heard, so I am trying to help your statements become at least truthful in your defense.

This is why banning "assault" rifles is called a slope. It will not make much of an effect and then when the item that really is the greater use is noted it will be the new villain. And the beat goes on.

An AR-15 style weapon was reportedly used by: 1) Uvalde shooter 2) Parkland shooter (Smith and Wesson M&P15, that manufacturer's version of the AR-15) 3) Las Vegas shooter (23 different weapons were recovered in the gunman's hotel suite, including multiple AR-15 style rifles and hundreds of rounds of ammunition) 4) Aurora Colorado (One AR-15 variant from Smith & Wesson, a pump-action 12-gauge shotgun and at least one .40-caliber semiautomatic pistol, according to) 5) Sandy Hook (Remington AR-15-style bushmaster) 6) Waffle House in Nashville TN (AR-15 assault-style rifle) 7) San Bernadino Office party (Two AR-15 variants (Smith & Wesson M&P assault rifle and a DPMS Panther Arms assault rifle) a Smith & Wesson handgun and a Llama handgun) 8) Midland/Odessa (At least one AR-15 variant, as stated in a Justice Department press release about a case involving the man who sold the gun to the shooter.) 9) Poway Synagogue near San Diego 10) Sutherland Springs Texas (Ruger AR-15 variant) 11) Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh ("multiple firearms'' including a Colt AR-15 rifle)
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...gs/7039204002/

In a 2016 blog post, the NRA referred to the AR-15 as "America's most popular rifle" https://web.archive.org/web/20191116...popular-rifle/

It has been reported that there are 20 million AR-15 style rifles in circulation in the USA: https://www.businessinsider.com/us-2...on-2022-5?op=1

Ubiquitous does not mean it is the most popular gun in the country. But it does mean they can be found pretty much everywhere.

JustinD · #5 07-21-2022, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

An AR-15 style weapon was reportedly used by: 1) Uvalde shooter 2) Parkland shooter (Smith and Wesson M&P15, that manufacturer's version of the AR-15) 3) Las Vegas shooter (23 different weapons were recovered in the gunman's hotel suite, including multiple AR-15 style rifles and hundreds of rounds of ammunition) 4) Aurora Colorado (One AR-15 variant from Smith & Wesson, a pump-action 12-gauge shotgun and at least one .40-caliber semiautomatic pistol, according to) 5) Sandy Hook (Remington AR-15-style bushmaster) 6) Waffle House in Nashville TN (AR-15 assault-style rifle) 7) San Bernadino Office party (Two AR-15 variants (Smith & Wesson M&P assault rifle and a DPMS Panther Arms assault rifle) a Smith & Wesson handgun and a Llama handgun) 8) Midland/Odessa (At least one AR-15 variant, as stated in a Justice Department press release about a case involving the man who sold the gun to the shooter.) 9) Poway Synagogue near San Diego 10) Sutherland Springs Texas (Ruger AR-15 variant) 11) Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh ("multiple firearms'' including a Colt AR-15 rifle)
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...gs/7039204002/

In a 2016 blog post, the NRA referred to the AR-15 as "America's most popular rifle" https://web.archive.org/web/20191116...popular-rifle/

It has been reported that there are 20 million AR-15 style rifles in circulation in the USA: https://www.businessinsider.com/us-2...on-2022-5?op=1

Ubiquitous does not mean it is the most popular gun in the country. But it does mean they can be found pretty much everywhere.

Listing off instances it was used does not make it the most used gun in mass shootings, facts say it is not. FBI statistics slap it in a general rifle category which includes any and every rifle made and it's still not in the neighborhood...not even in the suburb.

That was my statement.

cgjackson222 · #6 07-21-2022, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinD

Listing off instances it was used does not make it the most used gun in mass shootings, facts say it is not.

That was my statement.

Okay, do you have any evidence supporting your facts?

It could be that the weapon was just used in virtually all high profile mass shootings, such as ones in schools and ones with particularly high amounts of deaths. I realize there are technically about 1 mass shooting per day or something like. I am sure a lot of those aren't with an AR-15 style weapon.

JustinD · #7 07-21-2022, 03:44 PM

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...on-types-used/

These are FBI statistics.

They also to not break down the rifle category by scary or that looks like my granddad's, this is all rifles.

cgjackson222 · #8 07-21-2022, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinD

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...on-types-used/

These are FBI statistics.

They also to not break down the rifle category by scary or that looks like my granddad's, this is all rifles.

Thank you for sharing the statistics showing 75% of mass shootings are with handguns. I can't speak for Deertick, so I'll let him reply.

But I wonder if there is sort of a copycat situation with shooters in schools. I think they want to look badass, and they think the AR-15 does. I think a lot of them don't know much about guns. Supposedly the Uvalde 18 year old shooter had never shot a gun before.

bnorth · #9 07-21-2022, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Thank you for sharing the statistics showing 75% of mass shootings are with handguns. I can't speak for Deertick, so I'll let him reply.

But I wonder if there is sort of a copycat situation with shooters in schools. I think they want to look badass, and they think the AR-15 does. I think a lot of them don't know much about guns. Supposedly the Uvalde 18 year old shooter had never shot a gun before.

That would be my guess also.

JustinD · #10 07-21-2022, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Thank you for sharing the statistics showing 75% of mass shootings are with handguns. I can't speak for Deertick, so I'll let him reply.

But I wonder if there is sort of a copycat situation with shooters in schools. I think they want to look badass, and they think the AR-15 does. I think a lot of them don't know much about guns. Supposedly the Uvalde 18 year old shooter had never shot a gun before.

Now you have a somewhat logical conclusion.

These are usually mentally and socially challenged individuals for the most part and looking to cement themselves from a nobody into a media superstar. It's a Warhol effort to gain fame and thanks to the media, it works.

It is also fact that 690 people yearly win over a million dollars via lottery and that stat only includes logically people buying tickets.

The most biased website available everytown USA (because I am not cherry picking facts) states this -
Since 2013 there were at least 943 incidents of gunfire on school grounds, resulting in 321 deaths and 652 injuries nationally.

That number would include a large number of suicide and gang instances unrelated to mass shootings of course, but that helps their point and that's what people do.

It's a silly argument, but if I look at generally does it make more sense statistically to scare the crap out of kids by putting them in bunkers for infinitesimal chances or to teach them how to handle the more common chance of them winning a million dollars without going bankrupt?

Everything is perspective.

agreed, it's a silly statement (kinda) but the hyperbole of school shootings daily is also. One dead kid is too many, but chasing resolutions is not that easy of an answer. Your villain will just be replaced with another.

An agreeable commonality between all these recent kids is that everyone seemed to see it coming and all signs were ignored. As they were 18 years old, the childhood mental health and police notes do not show on a background check as they were juveniles. Would a more logical first step be addressing the loophole that juvenile records are not included? I can justify that and find ground.

bnorth · #11 07-21-2022, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Okay, do you have any evidence supporting your facts?

It could be that the weapon was just used in virtually all high profile mass shootings, such as ones in schools and ones with particularly high amounts of deaths. I realize there are technically about 1 mass shooting per day or something like. I am sure a lot of those aren't with an AR-15 style weapon.

That seems like a "slight" exaggeration. Since the FBI lists 132 over 40 years.

cgjackson222 · #12 07-21-2022, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

That seems like a "slight" exaggeration. Since the FBI lists 132 over 40 years.

I guess it depends on how you define mass shooting.

According to the Rockefeller Institute for Government (which I had never heard of before) there are about 20 a year, I think as of 2020.

They define a mass shooting an incident of targeted violence carried out by one or more shooters at one or more public or populated locations. Multiple victims (both injuries and fatalities) are associated with the attack, and both the victims and location(s) are chosen either at random or for their symbolic value. The event occurs within a single 24-hour period, though most attacks typically last only a few minutes. The motivation of the shooting must not correlate with gang violence or targeted militant or terroristic activity.

https://rockinst.org/gun-violence/ma...ing-factsheet/

But Gun Violence Archive, a nonprofit research group that tracks shootings and their characteristics in the United States, defines a mass shooting as an incident in which four or more people, excluding the perpetrator(s), are shot in one location at roughly the same time. If you define it this way, the numbers are much higher: 611 mass shootings in 2020 alone.

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

bnorth · #13 07-21-2022, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I guess it depends on how you define mass shooting.

According to the Rockefeller Institute for Government (which I had never heard of before) there are about 20 a year, I think as of 2020.

They define a mass shooting an incident of targeted violence carried out by one or more shooters at one or more public or populated locations. Multiple victims (both injuries and fatalities) are associated with the attack, and both the victims and location(s) are chosen either at random or for their symbolic value. The event occurs within a single 24-hour period, though most attacks typically last only a few minutes. The motivation of the shooting must not correlate with gang violence or targeted militant or terroristic activity.

https://rockinst.org/gun-violence/ma...ing-factsheet/

But Gun Violence Archive, a nonprofit research group that tracks shootings and their characteristics in the United States, defines a mass shooting as an incident in which four or more people, excluding the perpetrator(s), are shot in one location at roughly the same time. If you define it this way, the numbers are much higher: 611 mass shootings in 2020 alone.

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

Actually both links you posted make sense on how to count them. Thank you for the links.

Deertick · #14 07-21-2022, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinD

(1)I have seen a few posts in which you have extended a fallacy that AR-15 type designed rifles are the choice of mass shooters or "ubiquitous" as just said now.

(2)This is in no way true and I am sure you can find no proof of this over the past 20 years as handguns outnumber that statistic by a rather large margin (roughly 3 to 1). You have fallen for assumption, please research that number than go off thoughts. Also, understand that FBI statistics lump all shootings under the rifle category, which includes black rifles into the same number as any other rifle...thus that number is indeed much lower than the 3 to 1.

(3)I am assuming you just are parroting things you have heard, so I am trying to help your statements become at least truthful in your defense.

(4)This is why banning "assault" rifles is called a slope. It will not make much of an effect and then when the item that really is the greater use is noted it will be the new villain. And the beat goes on.

1. No you haven't. And I believe CG defined ubiquitous in context for you.

2. I neither agree nor disagree with your contention (other than the "assumption" part), as there has been no definitive data report that I am aware of. Using your logic that all are lumped into "rifles", then one could illogically claim that they are ALL AR style, no?

There is no consensus on what qualifies as a mass shooting. Some are based on number killed, some on number shot. Some exclude gang and drug related, some don't. There are databases that specify make/model used in nearly all cases, but I am not aware of any sortable. I do "feel" that a large majority of the '3+ shot' are handguns.

3. I don't "parrot" anything. I have pushed back on the notion that the 2nd provides unfettered access. I know that "unfettered" is not actually the case, but there are many that have fought EVERY.SINGLE.FETTER. tooth and nail. I'm *for* strict regulation, not banning guns.

4. See post 877. No one has argued against it.

Edited to add: I cannot see the source of the stats that you cited, but see that they are counting 3+ fatalities. Change this criteria to persons shot, and that number skyrockets.

"Since 2013, the source defines a mass shooting as any single attack in a public place with three or more fatalities, in line with the definition by the FBI. Before 2013, a mass shooting was defined as any single attack in a public place with four or more fatalities."

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