Convince me otherwise...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I hear the Postseason argument all the time for Morris, when actually he was, in total, almost the exact same pitcher he was in the regular season. He had 2 great post seasons and 3 lousy ones. Hershiser on the other hand, was much better than his regular season numbers in the post season. I don't believe much in "clutch" but if I did I'd have to say Hershiser was significantly more clutch than Morris. Hell, against Oakland in 1988 he went 3 for 3 with 2 doubles! He won 2 League Championship MVP's and one WS MVP.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I hear the Postseason argument all the time for Morris, when actually he was, in total, almost the exact same pitcher he was in the regular season. He had 2 great post seasons and 3 lousy ones. Hershiser on the other hand, was much better than his regular season numbers in the post season. I don't believe much in "clutch" but if I did I'd have to say Hershiser was significantly more clutch than Morris. Hell, against Oakland in 1988 he went 3 for 3 with 2 doubles! He won 2 League Championship MVP's and one WS MVP.

At one point Morris was 7-1 with a much lower ERA then he finished with in the post season. That was capped by a 10 inning Game 7, 1-0 Shutout in the Metrodome, against the favored Braves in the 1991 World Series.

Most people throw out what happened to him the following year when he was pitching for the Blue Jays. It was also largely forgivable because the Blue Jays won it all anyways. That staff was led by another mostly forgotten pitcher with a higher career WAR, lower ERA, higher Win%, lower WHIP and higher ERA+ then Jack Morris... in Jimmy Key.

Key didn't even get 1% on the HOF ballot, the 1st year he was eligible.

[packs]

Tim Hudson is another guy who I think was a very good pitcher who never got his due. The guy won 89 more games than he lost and put up a career 3.49 ERA during an extremely hitter friendly period of major league baseball. His WAR of 57.9 and ERA + of 120 are way ahead of Morris too.

According to Baseball Reference Tim Hudson is statistically the 72nd best starting pitcher of all time compared to Morris at 164.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by packs

Tim Hudson is another guy who I think was a very good pitcher who never got his due. The guy won 89 more games than he lost and put up a career 3.49 ERA during an extremely hitter friendly period of major league baseball. His WAR of 57.9 and ERA + of 120 are way ahead of Morris too.

According to Baseball Reference Tim Hudson is statistically the 72nd best starting pitcher of all time compared to Morris at 164.

I mean, check David Cone. He's ranked 48th according to BBR, Has 5 World Series Titles, a Cy Young Award (5 top 6 finishes), a Perfect Game, 8-3 in the Postseason.

Never got past the 1st year of eligibility.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I mean, check David Cone. He's ranked 48th according to BBR, Has 5 World Series Titles, a Cy Young Award (5 top 6 finishes), a Perfect Game, 8-3 in the Postseason.

Never got past the 1st year of eligibility.

Sheesh. Cone was better than I remember and I remember him being really darn good. Cool delivery too.

[JustinD]

I would disagree as Hershiser's noise was made from 84' to 89' and then somewhat averagish after. He never really turned it back after the 90' season to his prior skillset. Without the shoulder injury, I would say it would be likely he would have a member of the hall.

Morris, while a completely different pitcher due to what Sparky wanted, had a far more complete career with not a 6 year arc, but far more accomplishments over time and was even grabbing CYA and MVP votes in 92 with 21 wins 16 years in. There are many short burst stories in the history of MLB, avoiding injury and a long career is hard. They both played 18 years, but Jack faced more than 3k more batters and 650+ innings and still has a fractionally better w-l. Those stinkers in 89 and 93 kill his W-l also.

That said, Orel's career was still pretty darn good and either argument is sound. I just think the injuries ruin the argument for Orel.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I would disagree as Hershiser's noise was made from 84' to 89' and then somewhat averagish after. He never really turned it back after the 90' season to his prior skillset. Without the shoulder injury, I would say it would be likely he would have a member of the hall.

Morris, while a completely different pitcher due to what Sparky wanted, had a far more complete career with not a 6 year arc, but far more accomplishments over time and was even grabbing CYA and MVP votes in 92 with 21 wins 16 years in. There are many short burst stories in the history of MLB, avoiding injury and a long career is hard. They both played 18 years, but Jack faced more than 3k more batters and 650+ innings and still has a fractionally better w-l. Those stinkers in 89 and 93 kill his W-l also.

That said, Orel's career was still pretty darn good and either argument is sound. I just think the injuries ruin the argument for Orel.

No argument here.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I would disagree as Hershiser's noise was made from 84' to 89' and then somewhat averagish after. He never really turned it back after the 90' season to his prior skillset. Without the shoulder injury, I would say it would be likely he would have a member of the hall.

Morris, while a completely different pitcher due to what Sparky wanted, had a far more complete career with not a 6 year arc, but far more accomplishments over time and was even grabbing CYA and MVP votes in 92 with 21 wins 16 years in. There are many short burst stories in the history of MLB, avoiding injury and a long career is hard. They both played 18 years, but Jack faced more than 3k more batters and 650+ innings and still has a fractionally better w-l. Those stinkers in 89 and 93 kill his W-l also.

That said, Orel's career was still pretty darn good and either argument is sound. I just think the injuries ruin the argument for Orel.

At over 3000 IP Hershiser isn't exactly short on career duration, but obviously it splits into two different eras for him. But even with the mediocre portion of his career his ratio numbers pretty thoroughly trounce Morris.

+1 to Stieb and Cone

I picked Hershiser because he was significantly better in the postseason for his career than Morris in similar exposure, yet everyone makes the argument for Morris base on the postseason.

Hell If you want a better pitcher than Morris with more impressive post season credentials who isn't in the hall you don't even have to leave the Tigers. I'd take Mickey Lolich over Morris any day.

The list could get pretty extensive actually even if you stick to pitchers who at least briefly overlapped Morris's career. You can make an argument for:

Lolich, Stieb, Cone, Dennis Martinez, Steve Rogers, Saberhagen, Kevin Brown, Rick Reuschel, Andy Messersmith, David Wells and that's just off the top of my head.