Grading Guarantees - Are They For Real???

Carter08 · #1 07-26-2022, 04:22 PM

I�m not perfectly on topic here but it�s related. I have a friend that has a small but nice collection. He sent in a card 49 bowman he thought was mint and paid the psa premium of 2k for services on a card with a declared value under 49k. Card came back a psa 2, probably justified. Psa won�t issue a refund of any of the expenses or even meet him halfway and drop the price to 1k for cards with a declared value under 29k. It seems tough that psa would make you declare a value and be bound to it when their grading is what helps dictate the value so to speak. At any rate, would like to help this vent out if anyone has any experience on this. Psa customer service at least one time said no dice.

oldjudge · #2 07-26-2022, 04:50 PM

My sense it is very similar to the guarantee �If you are unhappy send back the unused portion of our product and we will send back the unused portion of your money�.

BobC · #3 07-26-2022, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

I�m not perfectly on topic here but it�s related. I have a friend that has a small but nice collection. He sent in a card 49 bowman he thought was mint and paid the psa premium of 2k for services on a card with a declared value under 49k. Card came back a psa 2, probably justified. Psa won�t issue a refund of any of the expenses or even meet him halfway and drop the price to 1k for cards with a declared value under 29k. It seems tough that psa would make you declare a value and be bound to it when their grading is what helps dictate the value so to speak. At any rate, would like to help this vent out if anyone has any experience on this. Psa customer service at least one time said no dice.

And this exactly one of the biggest problems and issues all along with TPGs and their opinions. They are NOT independent in the giving of their opinions on the grade of cards. There should be absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in the grading standards and way a '52 Topps Mantle card is examined and graded, and the way an '89 Topps Gregg Jefferies rookie card is examined and graded. So why should there be any difference in the grading fees?????

Any TPG charging such varying and graduated fees is automatically biased, and subject to a conflict-of -interest in their grading services. And this IS NOT DEBATABLE, IT IS A FACT!!!!! Any person/party/company being trusted and hired for their giving of an "opinion" should be totally independent, in both fact, AND appearance. All TPGs should follow a single and accepted set of grading standards, set by a majority of people in the hobby and not independently by each TPG to suit their own whims, that are unchanging and consistently applied, and further supported by total transparency as to why a card is graded as it is. And all the TPGs should be subject to ongoing peer review of their work by outside parties, with consequences for failing to accurately, and without bias and conflict-of-interest, do what they get paid to do. Give accurate, honest, and unbiased opinions on the grade of cards.

So how can anyone trust the "opinion" given by any person/party/company as to a card's grade that is not totally independent, unbiased, and without an obvious conflict-of-interest? The very simple and accurate answer is.........you actually can't!!!!!

jchcollins · #4 07-26-2022, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

So why should there be any difference in the grading fees?????

If there were no difference in the grading fees, then PSA and SGC would be inundated with thousands of fake T206 Wagners, Cobbs, Goudey Ruths, and '52 Mantles on a weekly basis and would waste countless hours labeling such cards "? Auth" and sending them back to people who said "Well, they told me I should have it graded" or scam artists hoping for a slim chance a grader would make a huge mistake.

As for the rest - yes, grading companies are biased, use subjectivity in judgement, and make many decisions on a daily basis which smack with conflict of interest or other questionable integrity issues. But we have paid them well for doing that for a generation at least now. The hobby was not perfect before grading, and despite the numerous hobby "ills" that grading was ostensibly designed to solve - it's certainly not perfect with them in the picture now. Cost of doing business. "Buy the card not the grade" people have already moved on in most cases, IMO.

BobC · #5 07-27-2022, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

If there were no difference in the grading fees, then PSA and SGC would be inundated with thousands of fake T206 Wagners, Cobbs, Goudey Ruths, and '52 Mantles on a weekly basis and would waste countless hours labeling such cards "? Auth" and sending them back to people who said "Well, they told me I should have it graded" or scam artists hoping for a slim chance a grader would make a huge mistake.

As for the rest - yes, grading companies are biased, use subjectivity in judgement, and make many decisions on a daily basis which smack with conflict of interest or other questionable integrity issues. But we have paid them well for doing that for a generation at least now. The hobby was not perfect before grading, and despite the numerous hobby "ills" that grading was ostensibly designed to solve - it's certainly not perfect with them in the picture now. Cost of doing business. "Buy the card not the grade" people have already moved on in most cases, IMO.

What are you talking about? So TPGs get inundated by thousands of fake cards, which if they are the experts they claim to be, they quickly note and see they are fake, return them ungraded as such, and oh yes, keep the grading fees for all those fake cards as well. They still get paid for looking at all the fakes, so why would they care? What scares me more is the possibility that a TPG would go ahead and declare a fake as authentic, so the value goes up, and they can charge more fees for grading it as a result. If the TPGs are actually good at doing their job and determining fakes, the fraudsters and scammers would quickly quit wasting money trying to get fakes authenticated as real, and stop submitting so many obvious fakes to them for grading.

And yes, am well aware that the TPGs have taken over the industry and the "horses are out of the barn", so to speak, and people in the hobby itself will likely never get control of the grading standards back from the TPGs and be able to force them to use a single, consistent set of standards, be transparent and totally unbiased in what they do, and submit to ongoing independent review of their work. But if all that ever did happen, as part of the independent oversight and review process, a governing hobby body could also have the TPGs getting inundated by fakes from submitters make the names/identities of those that continually kept trying to get fakes authenticated made public, so the hobby community was fully aware of who these scammers and fraudsters are.

I fully agree with you on "buy the card, and not the holder", but Net54 I think has a much higher and experienced level of collector, at least in regard to pre-war/vintage cards, and we by no means represent or make up a majority of the collector community out there. As such, a lot of collectors probably aren't as savvy as many of the members on here are. Plus, I think there may be a lot more investors/flippers out there than actual collectors nowadays. They know a graded card almost always sells for more than a raw card, and certain TPG graded cards almost always seem to sell for more than other TPG comparably graded cards. And for them, it seems to be all about the holder as dealers/sellers/AHs rely on and push those graded cards with their online sales. Let's face it, the original start and subsequent growth/demand of graded cards was a lot in response to the advent of online selling and the fact that people, especially those newer to and not as experienced yet, didn't actually get to personally see and handle cards they had already paid for, until they actually got delivered to them. The idea of an independent, third-party grader/authenticator made the idea of mail order/remote/online selling more appealing to those buying blindly. It eased their fears of getting ripped off by scammers and crooks. The TPGs, AHs, and sellers/dealers have since taken the TPG grading concept and so ingrained it in our hobby, and elevated it to a seeming control of the hobby community, so it is not soon going away. And even though many like us here on Net54 still may not be so endeared to graded cards, we all realize the economic effect that grading has on card prices and values. And even if we intend to never sell our cards, we all know that a sudden financial crisis, or leaving them to family after we're gone, is probably best done by getting at least some of them graded first. The hobby has changed around us, whether we like it or not. And TPGs are at the heart of the start of that changing, and behind the push to where we are today.

jchcollins · #6 07-27-2022, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

What are you talking about?

I don't know, what are you talking about? In a theoretic perfect world on paper, yes, fees would be even across the board and TPG's would employ no bias and never make technical grading mistakes in a discipline that at the end of the day ties technical qualities to eye appeal (to make an evaluation which will be considered subjective by most people the cards are being returned to). You have some PSA 7's that look like garden variety 5's, and PSA 3's in some cases that due to a hidden flaw can present like PSA 8's. This is nothing new.

Since we don't live in that utopia, TPG's like other entities composed of humans are frail and faulty, and frequently make mistakes. Like other businesses, they also live in a world of economic reality - and know that since their product inherently boosts card values, especially those of marquee hobby icons like '52 Mantles and Nolan Ryan rookies or what have you - that they can charge more for the same service on such cards and because of the value proposition, people will still gladly pay it. They can also charge more to weed out submission of fakes, even if that submission would be temporary - though I kind of disagree with you on that point, even with all the information out there - how many stories do we still get of newbies coming on boards or on social media with an "Is this real" question on a Ruth or Mantle they found in Grandaddy's attic? They would still get a lot of those - all the time - and undoubtedly the value tier preventing such submissions is a benefit to them. Consider also the "stated value" required to be declared isn't so much for them to ponder how much to charge you to grade it, but for them to have a ballpark idea of how much to insure your card for on the brief (maybe longer...) time it is in their possession. They are taking a substantially larger risk in taking delivery of, storing, and then handling and grading a $10k card than they are a $100 one. And of course we all know that PSA never screws up and damages any cards in their possession, turns an 8 into a 4 via careless handling, or flat out loses stuff. Right? Ergo, they charge more money to grade more expensive cards. I would imagine nobody who collects likes this, but you can hardly be surprised by it or blame them from a business perspective.

Look, I'm frustrated with TPG's too. I largely prefer raw these days, and don't submit myself anymore because of this. I just think it's unrealistic to expect today's TPG's to make dramatic changes or improvements to address some of what you mentioned. It largely is what it is and is not going to change. Maybe if the hobby could have a sampling of very trusted individuals above reproach and create something like the Philatelic Society like you have in stamp collecting to oversee grading? But that's a pipe dream. I have a love-hate relationship, because I do love a properly graded card in a nice slab. But that's become so hit or miss these days, I try to spare myself the disappointment of that not happening if I submit myself anymore.

steve B · #7 07-27-2022, 08:30 AM

What's needed is handling it in a slightly different way.

Philatelic foundation is mostly about authentication, but have decided to do some grading.

If you send in an item that you think is expensive and as is usual it turns out to be a common version, they charge for the common verson, usually their minimum I think $35. But they issue a certificate identifying it for what it is.
And if it's altered... it gets a big "Warning this is altered or faked" rubber stamp in red (Maybe a different printed form? I never checked mine all that closely.)
And the problem is clearly described.

PSA could easily do the same.
For example, I send in a Dover reprint with the perforations shaved off. No more ?auth, which reads like an "I don't know" opening the door to sketchy sales. They charge the base fee, (Or maybe even keep it at the higher fee) And slab it as "Dover reprint -Trimmed"

oldjudge · #8 07-27-2022, 09:00 AM

Bob--As you and I remember grading companies, or at least SGC, used to charge a fixed fee for card grading, regardless of the value of the card. Why is it a sliding scale based on value now? Why does a dog lick its' balls---because it can.

BobC · #9 07-27-2022, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I don't know, what are you talking about? In a theoretic perfect world on paper, yes, fees would be even across the board and TPG's would employ no bias and never make technical grading mistakes in a discipline that at the end of the day ties technical qualities to eye appeal (to make an evaluation which will be considered subjective by most people the cards are being returned to). You have some PSA 7's that look like garden variety 5's, and PSA 3's in some cases that due to a hidden flaw can present like PSA 8's. This is nothing new.

Since we don't live in that utopia, TPG's like other entities composed of humans are frail and faulty, and frequently make mistakes. Like other businesses, they also live in a world of economic reality - and know that since their product inherently boosts card values, especially those of marquee hobby icons like '52 Mantles and Nolan Ryan rookies or what have you - that they can charge more for the same service on such cards and because of the value proposition, people will still gladly pay it. They can also charge more to weed out submission of fakes, even if that submission would be temporary - though I kind of disagree with you on that point, even with all the information out there - how many stories do we still get of newbies coming on boards or on social media with an "Is this real" question on a Ruth or Mantle they found in Grandaddy's attic? They would still get a lot of those - all the time - and undoubtedly the value tier preventing such submissions is a benefit to them. Consider also the "stated value" required to be declared isn't so much for them to ponder how much to charge you to grade it, but for them to have a ballpark idea of how much to insure your card for on the brief (maybe longer...) time it is in their possession. They are taking a substantially larger risk in taking delivery of, storing, and then handling and grading a $10k card than they are a $100 one. And of course we all know that PSA never screws up and damages any cards in their possession, turns an 8 into a 4 via careless handling, or flat out loses stuff. Right? Ergo, they charge more money to grade more expensive cards. I would imagine nobody who collects likes this, but you can hardly be surprised by it or blame them from a business perspective.

Look, I'm frustrated with TPG's too. I largely prefer raw these days, and don't submit myself anymore because of this. I just think it's unrealistic to expect today's TPG's to make dramatic changes or improvements to address some of what you mentioned. It largely is what it is and is not going to change. Maybe if the hobby could have a sampling of very trusted individuals above reproach and create something like the Philatelic Society like you have in stamp collecting to oversee grading? But that's a pipe dream. I have a love-hate relationship, because I do love a properly graded card in a nice slab. But that's become so hit or miss these days, I try to spare myself the disappointment of that not happening if I submit myself anymore.

John,

I'm with you, and was speaking as to what should be the case in our hobby. Just because it isn't likely to ever come about and happen doesn't mean I can't speak about it and voice my opinion. And I understand that the TPGs and others have done what they do to collectors to take advantage of us in every way possible and milk every last cent they can out of us. We live in a capitalistic society, so that is the norm. Still doesn't mean it is right, and something that we as collectors shouldn't hope to maybe one day change so as to take some control of our hobby back. Please don't despair and put my thoughts and ideas down just because it is unlikely they will ever happen. We have to have hope, right?

But you saying that having a flat grading fee will inundate TPGs with fakes is just weird, because even with variable fees, they still got inundated during the pandemic. They still have people trying to pass fakes by them all the time. And you keep pushing the point of the TPGs being in business so it makes sense that they do what they do to make money. Well guess what, if people keep sending in fakes to the TPGs to grade, the TPGs likely couldn't care less because they get to charge for each and every one of those fake submissions. So they would likely look upon such actions as actually great for their businesses, which is why I asked what you were talking about.

And as for charging more fees for things like insurance and damage, my experience has always been that when someone goes up against someone with insurance, and wins, they end up getting a check from the insurance company. In all the cases I've ever heard about where someone has gone back against a TPG for an error or damage, etc., I've never heard anyone ever say they got a check from the TPG's insurance company to cover the loss/damage. Instead, they always seem to say it was the TPG that just sent them a check. I may be wrong, but if not, why is that? Maybe TPGs don't worry as much about insurance as you may think, or pay all that much for it. Also, if they are so concerned about that, they should spell out the costs/charges in their fee schedule then. Grading = $XXX Insurance coverage = $XXX. I know a lot of collectors have insurance on their collections, just as dealers have insurance to cover their inventory. Do those types of insurance suddenly become ineffective and mute should a collector or dealer send their cards in to a TPG temporarily to be graded? And if not, why don't the TPGs allow people/businesses submitting cards to them to waive the insurance costs because they have their own insurance on their items already? What you're saying in effect is that in some cases people/businesses can end up paying double insurance costs, just because a TPG can argue for variable fees based on card values, and end up putting more money in their pocket as a result.

Again, I'm on your side. And like you I wish many things were different and better.

jchcollins · #10 07-27-2022, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

John,

Please don't despair and put my thoughts and ideas down just because it is unlikely they will ever happen. We have to have hope, right?

I'm not putting your ideas down. I was explaining why things are the way they are, which it was not clear to me from your statements that you understood. If I offended you, my apologies; this is the problem with web forums over conversations and inflection of tones. I assure you that was not my intent.

Quote:

But you saying that having a flat grading fee will inundate TPGs with fakes is just weird, because even with variable fees, they still got inundated during the pandemic.

They got inundated during the early pandemic with ultra modern, and cards currently worth less than most people deem reasonable to grade. I honestly don't think the fakes thing is a huge deal, I was just illustrating that as an example of why higher fees would make sense to them. I'll give you that. If SGC charges 30 bucks to grade everything from a 2022 Topps parallel to a scarce Ruth E card, then so be it. I'm sure they'd accept more of their fair share of badly faked '52 Mantles for at least a time before tiring of it.

Quote:

And as for charging more fees for things like insurance and damage, my experience has always been that when someone goes up against someone with insurance, and wins, they end up getting a check from the insurance company. In all the cases I've ever heard about where someone has gone back against a TPG for an error or damage, etc., I've never heard anyone ever say they got a check from the TPG's insurance company to cover the loss/damage. Instead, they always seem to say it was the TPG that just sent them a check.

Semantics. I meant that someone, whether the insurance company or the TPG themselves - is liable for such payouts. If I'm the submitter requesting compensation for damage or something of that nature, I don't really care who is writing me the check. I don't know about fees having anything to do with double insurance or anything down to that level of detail. It plays into the justification for higher fees, but it's not the whole ball of wax. They are charging higher fees for higher valued items - as others have pointed out - because market forces allow them to.

Quote:

Again, I'm on your side. And like you I wish many things were different and better.

Ok, so you are more of an idealist, and I am more of a realist at the bitter old age of 45. But yeah, I'm with you. Things as they are suck, and much professional grading anymore I think is a sham / ripoff for what it is, especially for true collectors who are keeping a majority of their submissions and not simply flipping them, or at least planning to sell more or less immediately. I learned how to grade in the early 1990's. Yes, standards fluctuate, but I'm more than capable of keeping up and knowing at least what "range" my cards are in. I guess I just have little hope that the current model will ever substantially change, because the powers that be have setup the financial model and cash flow for things to continue working as they are. To the idealist perspective, yes - we should demand better and force change. But who realistically is going to do that now? Who has the financial incentive to? What percentage of big wheel collectors with high valued vintage material are NOT already more or less in bed with PSA - if not because they want to, but because their financial interests in a pile of impressive slabs more or less demand it? We aren't covering new ground here. Many of these complaints, or at least the flavors of them have been around for 2 decades plus now. Yet PSA continues to be a cash gravy train with no end in sight, and their business forecasts all still proclaim the sky to be the limit. You'll forgive me for being less than an optimist. I'm happy sitting here with my raw, flawed cards for a fraction of the price.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
CSG Grading - Is It a Real Option Yet?	Dead-Ball-Hitter	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	32	01-29-2022 12:37 PM
1951 Bowman Mantle real or not real	marvymelvin	Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980)	4	06-21-2014 09:47 PM
Question about PSA/JSA "Guarantees"	cjedmonton	Autograph Forum- Primarily Sports	53	07-13-2012 09:43 AM
Autographed Cobb Card -- Real or Not Real?	Archive	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	9	10-21-2008 03:26 PM
reflections on on-site grading (not real impressed w/it)	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	5	02-12-2003 08:05 AM