Heritage Rosen Mantle - Greatest Card Ever Auctioned?

AndrewJerome · #1 08-06-2022, 10:45 PM

Two points here

1) I am not affiliated with PWCC or the PWCC vault in any way. I like to drool over my actual cards. But it has been presented to the public that PWCC auction operations and PWCC vault operations are separate legal entities. Hence it has been presented that bankruptcy by the auction side would have no impact on cards in the vault.

2) Card company guarantees certainly can be used in a self serving manner. A company can obviously bless trimmed cards as ok and not pay out on the guarantee. But a guarantee is better than no guarantee. At least it gives you a chance. Long ago when SGC had the guarantee, I bought a D380 Clement Bros card off eBay. Turned out the card had pencil all over it and should be in an A holder. I was paid out what I thought was fair amount on the guarantee, the card was removed from the holder, and I kept the raw card. Today if this happened with SGC I would just be out of luck.

Exhibitman · #2 08-07-2022, 09:34 AM

Bob:

You are right: a new UCC-1 has to be filed when items are added to a vault and the record is public. I can say for sure that the vault is not renting real estate or a safe deposit box. It is simply providing a bailment service to dodge state sales taxes. Which are deferred: if you ever take delivery of the card, you owe the tax for your state.

BobC · #3 08-08-2022, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Bob:

You are right: a new UCC-1 has to be filed when items are added to a vault and the record is public. I can say for sure that the vault is not renting real estate or a safe deposit box. It is simply providing a bailment service to dodge state sales taxes. Which are deferred: if you ever take delivery of the card, you owe the tax for your state.

And that is why I'm posing the thought/question, why don't they change what/how they do their vaults so that they are considered as renting/leasing something that does afford their users protection from potential bailment issues? Virtually no one is going to waste their time and money continually sending in and updating UCC-1 filings, at least not until one of the vault providers may end up having themselves, or a parent or related company go into bankruptcy and potentially creating a bailment issue for their customers. Or are you saying there is no realistic, legal way a vault could be set up that would be considered as a real rental/leasing type arrangement that could afford users protection from potential bailment issues?

In the early 2000's before he passed away in 2011, I had the opportunity and pleasure to meet Dan McCarthy, and listen to stories he told to a then colleague and myself about how he was the one, on behalf of the New York Yankees, that was able to convince the IRS to accept the concept of depreciating player contracts for income tax purposes. So it doesn't seem impossible to me that when there is a legal will to get something done, there can be a legal way to do so.

McCarthy also told us how ironically at one time, the New York Yankees were owned by an Ohio limited partnership.

Michael B · #4 08-08-2022, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Bob:

You are right: a new UCC-1 has to be filed when items are added to a vault and the record is public. I can say for sure that the vault is not renting real estate or a safe deposit box. It is simply providing a bailment service to dodge state sales taxes. Which are deferred: if you ever take delivery of the card, you owe the tax for your state.

The beautiful thing about UCC-1's is that they do not need to be filed in the jurisdiction in which the 'vault' is located or that states Secretary of States office. The District of Columbia Recorder of Deeds is the default filing jurisdiction for all UCC-1's. There is no Secretary of State's office to file them. They all go to the ROD and they can be filed electronically.

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