Popular National Acquisition - Covid

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Ted, read up on "excess deaths". it may help clarify.

Your point is as meaningless as saying we can't count the victims of 9-11 because some of them could have died that day anyway.

Insurance companies charge higher rates (or deny coverage) for smokers, obesity, heart disease and other factors. I say anyone who refuses to get vaccinated or take recommended actions to protect others in society pays for their treatment. (Same goes for no helmet or seatbelt. BILLIONS of cost passed on to the rest of us yearly). Or should the 'accountability for their actions' not apply?

I'm seeing an excess of ONLY 4-500k..on a population of 330 million. .12% could be a rounding error. We shut down the world for that?

Anyhow, people with type 1 diabetes not their fault, people with type 2 due to bad nutrition their fault. Same for smokers and people not wearing seatbelts. I think they should have some accountability or higher premiums, but the masses shouldnt bear the brunt of the cost, or the "safety " for them

Fiscally conservative
Socially liberal

For the record my dad passed in 2014 and doctors asked if he had traveled to the middle east as the symptoms mirrored MERS. Covid has been around, but only recently became a partisian disease

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

No need for the patronizing tone, but I genuinely appreciate your reply. This stuff is very interesting to me.

The only part of this that still doesn't make sense to me is the "government to completely own us, like North Korea, where we would have no real personal freedom". I understand that you are proposing it as essentially a hypothetical, but, in your mind, what would that actually look like? Under your theory, one who self-selects as the former of the two examples is seemingly choosing to land in a place on the spectrum that is closer to that "North Korea" example, but I wonder if anyone would actually do that. Fleshing out the "North Korea" extreme would be one way of looking closer at that.

I apologize for the patronizing attitude. This stuff is so basic and fundamental to me that it bothers me when intelligent people seem to struggle with the concept. What you said above, that I've bolded, indicates you aren't getting it at all. I despise the North Korean concept.

Total freedom is one extreme. People make their own decisions.
Total slavery is the other. Slavemasters (government) make all the decisions.

I am closer to total freedom, but not far from the middle as most laws and regulations we have in this country are reasonable and desirable to me.

I hate the concept of North Korea. I am nowhere near endorsing that kind of government control over its people. It's the very worst example of big government supposedly "taking care" of its people. That level of extreme control is always brutal, because people who haven't been hammered into total submission desire at least some degree of self-determination.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by jethrod3

It's not a casual or causal link. And as for your defense, the actual link you posted was NOT to a peer-reviewed journal. Again, you cite no evidence of anything conclusive from a viable source that supports your claim about a link to masks.

And you also say you've spoken with mental health workers and teaching professionals. Well, I actually work with mental health workers and doctors who teach in a medical school so they are health professionals as well as educators. I have colleagues there that had committed suicide during the pandemic. I have colleagues there that got burned out after many of them dealt with tons of patients, several of whom recanted their stupidity about being anti-vax and anti-mask on their deathbeds. I will tell you that my burned-out colleagues NEVER cited mask-wearing or CO2 levels as the issue. My colleague that committed suicide did not do so over having to actually wear a mask. One last thing....I'm personally not offended by you calling a mask a "face diaper." Calling it that says more about you than about me, but hey, you seem to prefer to read into things and form your own opinions, so you keep being you. But they are masks, and they meant to keep from spreading germs, rather than doing what diapers are supposed to do. And if you are so concerned about CO2, then kindly allow your next surgical team to perform surgery on you with a mask. Some of my colleagues work long shifts in the ER, so maybe you should have a nice talk with them and allow them to eliminate an unproven or incredibly small risk of approaching "harmful" CO2 levels as they operate on you.

Citing the Chief Medical Officer for the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention isn't a viable source for you? Isn't that what everyone else does - cite Tony "dog killer" Fauci and the CDC blindly? Speaking of peer-reviewed studies, where are all of the studies that provide concrete proof anything the CDC/Fauci has done/recommended has saved any lives? They simply send out their White House mouthpieces to defend their positions with generic takes. Anyways, the CMO mentioned the "pandemic's" affect on the population's mental health. That encompasses the measures enacted by the government, including masks. I've talked to speech therapists who have seen a huge uptick in speech issues in our youth since the "pandemic". I've talked to teachers who have seen social issues in our youth. Who is to be held accountable for these outcomes?

Congratulations on working in the medical field - didn't realize this was a **** measuring contest of how connected we were to our sources? I'm sure their paychecks, especially if they're working in the ER, help diminish any concerns over CO2 levels with extended mask wearing. NFL players risk CTE and all sorts of other health issues, but their paychecks diminish those concerns as well. Sorry to hear about the loss of some of your colleagues. I'm not going to get into the guilt trip attempt of anti-vax/anti-mask people recanting their beliefs, or labeling dying/dead people as "stupid" as you did.

Ask your colleagues if healthy eating, exercise, proper sleep, and less stress is a good COVID/illness prevention method. Would love to hear their takes on that, and why the White House/CDC/Fauci refused to suggest such methods.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I'm seeing an excess of ONLY 4-500k..on a population of 330 million. .12% could be a rounding error. We shut down the world for that?

Anyhow, people with type 1 diabetes not their fault, people with type 2 due to bad nutrition their fault. Same for smokers and people not wearing seatbelts. I think they should have some accountability or higher premiums, but the masses shouldnt bear the brunt of the cost, or the "safety " for them

Fiscally conservative
Socially liberal

For the record my dad passed in 2014 and doctors asked if he had traveled to the middle east as the symptoms mirrored MERS. Covid has been around, but only recently became a partisian disease

You mean it's possible to be in the middle nowadays? Shocking...

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I apologize for the patronizing attitude. This stuff is so basic and fundamental to me that it bothers me when intelligent people seem to struggle with the concept. What you said above, that I've bolded, indicates you aren't getting it at all. I despise the North Korean concept.

Total freedom is one extreme. People make their own decisions.
Total slavery is the other. Slavemasters (government) make all the decisions.

I am closer to total freedom, but not far from the middle as most laws and regulations we have in this country are reasonable and desirable to me.

I hate the concept of North Korea. I am nowhere near endorsing that kind of government control over its people. It's the very worst example of big government supposedly "taking care" of its people. That level of extreme control is always brutal, because people who haven't been hammered into total submission desire at least some degree of self-determination.

I think you have articulated your personal position quite well and I don't intend to try and convince you to change it or to mischaracterize it.

I suppose this is really getting into the weeds here, but what I was trying to get at was a better understanding of the "spectrum theory" (if you will). If I understood your two examples correctly, this is the one which you wrote to describe someone who is not you (let's call them "OKwithMoreRegulation"):

"a person who favors seat belt and helmet requirements, and vaccination requirements, and facemask requirements, is also more likely to favor increased gun control laws. That doesn't mean they necessarily favor ALL laws, regulations, mandates, but their thinking generally leads them to support such measures."

So, the spectrum might look something like this, then:

"Total freedom" - - - - You - -(midpoint) - - - - "OKWithMoreRegulation" - - - - North Korea

Is that fair?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Ask your colleagues if healthy eating, exercise, proper sleep, and less stress is a good COVID/illness prevention method. Would love to hear their takes on that, and why the White House/CDC/Fauci refused to suggest such methods.

https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/index.html
https://www.cdc.gov/populationhealth...eing/index.htm

These are literally at the top of the CDC home page, under "healthy living"

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I think you have articulated your personal position quite well and I don't intend to try and convince you to change it or to mischaracterize it.

I suppose this is really getting into the weeds here, but what I was trying to get at was a better understanding of the "spectrum theory" (if you will). If I understood your two examples correctly, this is the one which you wrote to describe someone who is not you (let's call them "OKwithMoreRegulation"):

"a person who favors seat belt and helmet requirements, and vaccination requirements, and facemask requirements, is also more likely to favor increased gun control laws. That doesn't mean they necessarily favor ALL laws, regulations, mandates, but their thinking generally leads them to support such measures."

So, the spectrum might look something like this, then:

"Total freedom" - - - - You - -(midpoint) - - - - "OKWithMoreRegulation" - - - - North Korea

Is that fair?

Exactly right.

I wasn't too upset with Covid mask mandates at first because of 2 things. First, nobody knew exactly what we were dealing with, and second, the public was in a panic and was turning to government and the medical experts to do something. So I figured, even if the masks were in effect a placebo, to give people some sense of control over the situation, there was societal benefit there.

I know a lot of people further toward the "absolute freedom" end of the spectrum disagree on that.

I got the vaccinations for myself, but wasn't at all happy about some government (and other) employees losing their jobs because they didn't get them. Some of the same people who protest and make life miserable for Supreme Court justices over the concept of a person "owning their own body" were just fine with government essentially forcing experimental vaccines into peoples' bodies. I say experimental because these vacs were rushed into production and didn't go through the usual approval process (due to time constraints primarily.)

For discussions about Covid or guns, I don't think we're really that far apart. And I mean all of us in the discussions. We all believe in government, and rule of law, personal freedom, and trying to have a society. Some of us tend toward the personal freedom side (fewer restrictions) while some tend the other way.

My point with Peter is that I think most people first decide what they think and believe, and then look to see which political party stands for most of the same things, rather than people choosing a political party to do their thinking for them, then becoming a cheerleader for those positions. Like picking a favorite sports team to cheer for. I think people who vote purely partisan tickets, simply because they've decided they're a member of a party, are being brain dead. I've said before, I could train a pigeon to vote a partisan ticket. Just look for the R or D next to a candidate and peck on it. Is it better to go through life thinking for yourself, issue by issue, sometimes agreeing with, sometimes disagreeing with, members of all parties? Or is it better to go through life with essentially the brain of a pigeon?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I'm seeing an excess of ONLY 4-500k..on a population of 330 million. .12% could be a rounding error. We shut down the world for that?

Anyhow, people with type 1 diabetes not their fault, people with type 2 due to bad nutrition their fault. Same for smokers and people not wearing seatbelts. I think they should have some accountability or higher premiums, but the masses shouldnt bear the brunt of the cost, or the "safety " for them

Fiscally conservative
Socially liberal

For the record my dad passed in 2014 and doctors asked if he had traveled to the middle east as the symptoms mirrored MERS. Covid has been around, but only recently became a partisian disease

What about those with type 2 diabetes from massive steriod use and does smoking weed count. Asking for a friend.

We all make stupid choices. I live in a no helmet state. I personally wear a helmet, boots, and biker jacket even on really hot days. My favorite is those riding with shorts and Jesus boots(flip flops) and nothing else.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/index.html
https://www.cdc.gov/populationhealth...eing/index.htm

These are literally at the top of the CDC home page, under "healthy living"

This is not what has been promoted for COVID prevention.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mark, let me put it this way, and I am fine if your starting point is ideology not party affiliation. I am not quarreling which comes first. To my mind, a "more freedom" ideology would point towards objecting to MANDATORY masks or vaccines, but should be neutral as to any given individual's assessment of whether the science points to wearing or getting one or not. Yet, from what I have seen, there is a strong correlation between people's ideology (or political party as a proxy for that, if imperfect) and their views on the vaccines and masks themselves. This is what puzzles me. There doesn't seem to be a logical connection. Personally, I am mostly in the more freedom camp and don't think there should be mandates, but I believe pretty strongly it's a good idea to wear an N95 in certain settings and maybe in even more settings if you're higher risk. But I think if I expressed that view of masks, most people would assume I was a liberal or whatever the word is. Conversely, people espousing the view of fuck vaccines and masks are probably not liberals.

These days it seems so many issues seem to divide along party lines that aren't really logically connected to the party's underlying ideology. As I said before, very few people are agnostic about questions which should be answered without regard to political or ideological affiliation.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mark, let me put it this way, and I am fine if your starting point is ideology not party affiliation. I am not quarreling which comes first. To my mind, a "more freedom" ideology would point towards objecting to MANDATORY masks or vaccines, but should be neutral as to any given individual's assessment of whether the science points to wearing or getting one or not. Yet, from what I have seen, there is a strong correlation between people's ideology (or political party as a proxy for that, if imperfect) and their views on the vaccines and masks themselves. This is what puzzles me. There doesn't seem to be a logical connection. Personally, I am mostly in the more freedom camp and don't think there should be mandates, but I believe pretty strongly it's a good idea to wear an N95 in certain settings and maybe in even more settings if you're higher risk. But I think if I expressed that view of masks, most people would assume I was a liberal or whatever the word is. Conversely, people espousing the view of fuck vaccines and masks are probably not liberals.

These days it seems so many issues seem to divide along party lines that aren't really logically connected to the party's underlying ideology. As I said before, very few people are agnostic about questions which should be answered without regard to political or ideological affiliation.

I said something similar in my latest post. I said I supported the early mask mandates, thinking that even if they were basically little more than placebos, that served some purpose in calming peoples' fears at least a little.

If you recall, early on in the pandemic, government was pleading with people to NOT use N95 masks, because they wanted the nation's supply of those to go to healthcare workers. Maybe we agree then, that the cheap masks that soon became available to the masses weren't particularly effective.

You're saying you use N95 masks because they are effective, but oppose mandates. I'm saying that early on, I supported mandates, even though the cheap masks the public was told to use weren't very effective.

So, I think you and I, at least, are separating ideology and the science of the effectiveness of the masks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I said something similar in my latest post. I said I supported the early mask mandates, thinking that even if they were basically little more than placebos, that served some purpose in calming peoples' fears at least a little.

If you recall, early on in the pandemic, government was pleading with people to NOT use N95 masks, because they wanted the nation's supply of those to go to healthcare workers. Maybe we agree then, that the cheap masks that soon became available to the masses weren't particularly effective.

You're saying you use N95 masks because they are effective, but oppose mandates. I'm saying that early on, I supported mandates, even though the cheap masks the public was told to use weren't very effective.

So, I think you and I, at least, are separating ideology and the science of the effectiveness of the masks.

Agree, but I see a lot of ideology bound up in a lot of people's points of view or at least how they express them. "I don't think vaccines are effective" or "I think vaccines are risky" could be legitimate agnostic points of view if based on data and studies, but over and over again they seem to be bound up with conspiracy theories about Fauci and Big Pharma and the government. For example.

Or, "I don't think masks add much value" could be an agnostic point of view based on data and studies and a personal cost benefit analysis, but time and again that point of view seems bound up with defiance about the whole thing and some false narrative that refusing to wear one somehow makes one more of an individualist. And people who wear them are lemmings. Etc.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Exactly right.

I wasn't too upset with Covid mask mandates at first because of 2 things. First, nobody knew exactly what we were dealing with, and second, the public was in a panic and was turning to government and the medical experts to do something. So I figured, even if the masks were in effect a placebo, to give people some sense of control over the situation, there was societal benefit there.

I know a lot of people further toward the "absolute freedom" end of the spectrum disagree on that.

I got the vaccinations for myself, but wasn't at all happy about some government (and other) employees losing their jobs because they didn't get them. Some of the same people who protest and make life miserable for Supreme Court justices over the concept of a person "owning their own body" were just fine with government essentially forcing experimental vaccines into peoples' bodies. I say experimental because these vacs were rushed into production and didn't go through the usual approval process (due to time constraints primarily.)

For discussions about Covid or guns, I don't think we're really that far apart. And I mean all of us in the discussions. We all believe in government, and rule of law, personal freedom, and trying to have a society. Some of us tend toward the personal freedom side (fewer restrictions) while some tend the other way.

My point with Peter is that I think most people first decide what they think and believe, and then look to see which political party stands for most of the same things, rather than people choosing a political party to do their thinking for them, then becoming a cheerleader for those positions. Like picking a favorite sports team to cheer for. I think people who vote purely partisan tickets, simply because they've decided they're a member of a party, are being brain dead. I've said before, I could train a pigeon to vote a partisan ticket. Just look for the R or D next to a candidate and peck on it. Is it better to go through life thinking for yourself, issue by issue, sometimes agreeing with, sometimes disagreeing with, members of all parties? Or is it better to go through life with essentially the brain of a pigeon?

Thanks, Mark. I appreciate the insight into your way of viewing things. I agree that many in these discussions are not so far apart. It is my belief (and I am often on a island in thinking this) that the vast majority of Americans on the left and the right are not as far apart from each other in their concerns and views as the echo chambers of corporate news and algorythmically sorted social media would have us believe.

[jethrod3]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Citing the Chief Medical Officer for the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention isn't a viable source for you? Isn't that what everyone else does - cite Tony "dog killer" Fauci and the CDC blindly? Speaking of peer-reviewed studies, where are all of the studies that provide concrete proof anything the CDC/Fauci has done/recommended has saved any lives? They simply send out their White House mouthpieces to defend their positions with generic takes. Anyways, the CMO mentioned the "pandemic's" affect on the population's mental health. That encompasses the measures enacted by the government, including masks. I've talked to speech therapists who have seen a huge uptick in speech issues in our youth since the "pandemic". I've talked to teachers who have seen social issues in our youth. Who is to be held accountable for these outcomes?

Congratulations on working in the medical field - didn't realize this was a **** measuring contest of how connected we were to our sources? I'm sure their paychecks, especially if they're working in the ER, help diminish any concerns over CO2 levels with extended mask wearing. NFL players risk CTE and all sorts of other health issues, but their paychecks diminish those concerns as well. Sorry to hear about the loss of some of your colleagues. I'm not going to get into the guilt trip attempt of anti-vax/anti-mask people recanting their beliefs, or labeling dying/dead people as "stupid" as you did.

Ask your colleagues if healthy eating, exercise, proper sleep, and less stress is a good COVID/illness prevention method. Would love to hear their takes on that, and why the White House/CDC/Fauci refused to suggest such methods.

I'm asking honestly if you bothered to really read the message you responded to. The CMO would have been a viable source if quoting data on something relevant to your speaking point we were debating, which is wearing a mask and the harm caused by CO2 levels. Citing mask-wearing as a main contributor to mental health issues and speech issues makes as much sense as attributing the slight decrease in lung cancer death rates expected in the coming years to mask wearing because people smoked less cigarrettes. Maybe it's a determinant, but most probably it is not and right now there are no data to support it. If you don't have evidence just admit that it's speculation that you might use to spin your own story and justify your own beliefs. It's not against the law to do that. But something you also should think twice about commenting on is the paycheck of people in the medical profession, even in the ER. In fact, many on the front lines that wore masks all day and treated COVID patients both in and out of the ER made many times less than the average annual NFL salary of >$800K. And they assumed a greater perceived risk at the start of the pandemic. Even now the risks are not completely known. As for your comment about the guilt trip, if you choose to see it that way, that's your prerogative. I won't apologize though for thinking a person stupid (or in the best case scenario, uninformed) if they were capable of being vaccinated (e.g., no medically-related reason to not get vaccinated) but did not get vaccinated, and refused to mask up at the height of the pandemic. I also won't apologize for thinking this because I have heard enough direct quotes from caregivers and in newscasts where the patients themselves admitted their mistakes and felt stupid about their choices. Pretty simple choice actually---if you can take steps (e.g., vaccination) to safeguard against the possibility of a more severe case and hospitalization, why not take those steps? Instead, we have people that threw up their hands and screamed "but my rights!" and they are entitled to do that, but then when they are hospitalized with COVID, or when they spread COVID like at the Trump super-spreader events, it impacted all of us because (and I admit I am just speculating here----I have no hard data) all of us (the vaccinated and unvaccinated) will likely end up paying higher insurance rates to cover those costs.

I'm not going to waste my breath talking trying to change your mind about Fauci since I can tell you've already condemned that man. I disagree with that stance. What you should understand though, is that science evolves, sometimes over short periods like days and weeks, and opinions can and do change based on science. The guy has my respect and many of my colleagues at NIH that work directly with him. His body of work on HIV and other areas of research before COVID speak to his impact on science and health. You might do a literature search on him in your spare time if you like. Of course, if you'd rather support the folks that pushed bleach injections and ivermectin, it's still a free country!

[jethrod3]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

This is not what has been promoted for COVID prevention.

Has it been promoted for any other communicable disease? It's under healthy living perhaps because it applies to healthy living in general, no?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Double post.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Demonizing FaucI is popular in certain circles but people who see things in conspiratorial terms need demons and scapegoats.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Demonizing FaucI is popular in certain circles but people who see things in conspiratorial terms need demons and scapegoats.

Peter, I don't understand your continued engagement with individuals who are obviously borderline "Fuck society, survival of the fittest" as their most coherent policy. The ones who will play "hide the peanut" in a group of kids with a nut allergy, because they believe that it is made up by the manufactures of epi-pens. And the people just need to toughen up, or stay away, because, well, FREEDUM.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Peter, I don't understand your continued engagement with individuals who are obviously borderline "Fuck society, survival of the fittest" as their most coherent policy. The ones who will play "hide the peanut" in a group of kids with a nut allergy, because they believe that it is made up by the manufactures of epi-pens. And the people just need to toughen up, or stay away, because, well, FREEDUM.

Fair enough and it is probably not a good use of time, but I find it interesting how they think and respond to questions/points.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Peter, I don't understand your continued engagement with individuals who are obviously borderline "Fuck society, survival of the fittest" as their most coherent policy. The ones who will play "hide the peanut" in a group of kids with a nut allergy, because they believe that it is made up by the manufactures of epi-pens. And the people just need to toughen up, or stay away, because, well, FREEDUM.

I think it would be difficult to summarize it better. Add in some election fraud and subtle racism maybe.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by jethrod3

Citing mask-wearing as a main contributor to mental health issues and speech issues makes as much sense as attributing the slight decrease in lung cancer death rates expected in the coming years to mask wearing because people smoked less cigarrettes.

But something you also should think twice about commenting on is the paycheck of people in the medical profession, even in the ER. In fact, many on the front lines that wore masks all day and treated COVID patients both in and out of the ER made many times less than the average annual NFL salary of >$800K. And they assumed a greater perceived risk at the start of the pandemic. Even now the risks are not completely known.

...or when they spread COVID like at the Trump super-spreader events, it impacted all of us because (and I admit I am just speculating here----I have no hard data) all of us (the vaccinated and unvaccinated) will likely end up paying higher insurance rates to cover those costs.

I'm not going to waste my breath talking trying to change your mind about Fauci since I can tell you've already condemned that man. I disagree with that stance. What you should understand though, is that science evolves, sometimes over short periods like days and weeks, and opinions can and do change based on science. The guy has my respect and many of my colleagues at NIH that work directly with him. His body of work on HIV and other areas of research before COVID speak to his impact on science and health. You might do a literature search on him in your spare time if you like. Of course, if you'd rather support the folks that pushed bleach injections and ivermectin, it's still a free country!

1) One of the main learning tools for kids when it comes to speaking is visual. They watch others' mouths when they speak to help form words. This is a known fact. Take that away, and you'll see speech disorders. Add in the lack of social engagement which helps speech, and you'll see it even more. These are common sense, known facts. People didn't see smiles, etc. Masks are a detriment to development and mental health. Prove me wrong. 100% wrong.

2) I think it's despicable to call what medical professionals went through as "the front lines". I also don't think their health was much at risk. The shortage of nurses came from hospitals firing unvaxxed nurses, not a huge spike in nursing deaths. COVID isn't a killer of average healthiness or better people. Most nurses/doctors are healthy. I also talked to nurses and doctors who have said the whole thing is blown way out or proportion. So excuse me for not holding these people in the same regard as military or firefighters, etc. "Front lines"... Psh...

3) Trump super spreader events is what you're going with? I don't recall mass COVID transmission at these. You're not gonna use Obama's Martha's Vineyard party (which legitimately was a mass spreader), or National Sports Collectors Convention (if we want to be less political) as an example? Trump is who you want to target, proving you have bias in this?

4) Thank you for not wasting a breath. I wouldn't want you to rebreathe too much CO2. Ask dogs what they think of Fauci, and if he's "respectable". Oh wait... They're probably dead if he was able to get his hands on them. Better yet, ask him some questions in Chinese. I hear he's fluent. Wuhan.

Enjoy your night.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by Carter08

I think it would be difficult to summarize it better. Add in some election fraud and subtle racism maybe.

How many times did you poop your pants waiting to play this card? And when you finally played it, did you pee your pants a little bit out of excitement?

Go change yourself. It's embarrassing.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

1) One of the main learning tools for kids when it comes to speaking is visual. They watch others' mouths when they speak to help form words. This is a known fact. Take that away, and you'll see speech disorders. Add in the lack of social engagement which helps speech, and you'll see it even more. These are common sense, known facts. People didn't see smiles, etc. Masks are a detriment to development and mental health. Prove me wrong. 100% wrong.

2) I think it's despicable to call what medical professionals went through as "the front lines". I also don't think their health was much at risk. The shortage of nurses came from hospitals firing unvaxxed nurses, not a huge spike in nursing deaths. COVID isn't a killer of average healthiness or better people. Most nurses/doctors are healthy. I also talked to nurses and doctors who have said the whole thing is blown way out or proportion. So excuse me for not holding these people in the same regard as military or firefighters, etc. "Front lines"... Psh...

3) Trump super spreader events is what you're going with? I don't recall mass COVID transmission at these. You're not gonna use Obama's Martha's Vineyard party (which legitimately was a mass spreader), or National Sports Collectors Convention (if we want to be less political) as an example? Trump is who you want to target, proving you have bias in this?

4) Thank you for not wasting a breath. I wouldn't want you to rebreathe too much CO2. Ask dogs what they think of Fauci, and if he's "respectable". Oh wait... They're probably dead if he was able to get his hands on them. Better yet, ask him some questions in Chinese. I hear he's fluent. Wuhan.

Enjoy your night.

OAN producer:
"And.....SCENE! You nailed it! I know removing the Soros, Gates, space laser stuff from the script was hard, but we think it went well considering the context. We can circle back to that and really put a finer point on the 'who runs the world' stuff in the "Bankers" scene.

Look for some changes in the next scene. We are going to add a lot more 'whataboutisms'. The audience really sucks that up as an actual argument according to our research. Ha-ha, just kidding about the research part. We just made up some people we didn't talk to that would have had intimate knowledge of whatever it was that we needed to counter any so-called indisputable facts and then presented them as indisputable facts.

Go back to your trailer and rest up for a few hrs, eat some fruit, and do a few crunches. We need you looking hard for the abortion clinic protest where you counter the "My body, My choice" chants with "All Lives Matter" and "Whatabout masks?".

This should really get us back on the map!"

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by Deertick

OAN producer:
"And.....SCENE! You nailed it! I know removing the Soros, Gates, space laser stuff from the script was hard, but we think it went well considering the context. We can circle back to that and really put a finer point on the 'who runs the world' stuff in the "Bankers" scene.

Look for some changes in the next scene. We are going to add a lot more 'whataboutisms'. The audience really sucks that up as an actual argument according to our research. Ha-ha, just kidding about the research part. We just made up some people we didn't talk to that would have had intimate knowledge of whatever it was that we needed to counter any so-called indisputable facts and then presented them as indisputable facts.

Go back to your trailer and rest up for a few hrs, eat some fruit, and do a few crunches. We need you looking hard for the abortion clinic protest where you counter the "My body, My choice" chants with "All Lives Matter" and "Whatabout masks?".

This should really get us back on the map!"

Care to be productive in this conversation?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

2) I think it's despicable to call what medical professionals went through as "the front lines". I also don't think their health was much at risk. The shortage of nurses came from hospitals firing unvaxxed nurses, not a huge spike in nursing deaths. COVID isn't a killer of average healthiness or better people. Most nurses/doctors are healthy. I also talked to nurses and doctors who have said the whole thing is blown way out or proportion. So excuse me for not holding these people in the same regard as military or firefighters, etc. "Front lines"... Psh...

"Despicable" could describe attempts to denigrate the life-saving work of nurses and doctors during a global pandemic. But I guess, to you, risking your health for your fellow Americans is only heroic if you have a gun or a firehose in your hand?

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The main thing he is.

“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” George Carlin sure got that correct.

My favorite quote by far from George...and that is one heck of a big selection to pick from.

[bnorth]

The main thing I have noticed with how people look at Covid is how it affected those around them. I live in a city that got hit very hard so most here take it very serious. My younger brother lives in an area that only one person got it and it was a mild case.

So when I went to where he lives for our mothers funeral they made a joke of it. After I explained how many died where I live and my other younger brother(different mothers) got it and it left him with lasting problems they changed their opinion. It also helped me understand why some people act like it was nothing.

Just my 2 cents and maybe not worth that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

"Despicable" could describe attempts to denigrate the life-saving work of nurses and doctors during a global pandemic. But I guess, to you, risking your health for your fellow Americans is only heroic if you have a gun or a firehose in your hand?

I am as guilty as anyone in this thread, but maybe it's time for all of us to stop feeding.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

"Despicable" could describe attempts to denigrate the life-saving work of nurses and doctors during a global pandemic. But I guess, to you, risking your health for your fellow Americans is only heroic if you have a gun or a firehose in your hand?

The great thing about this country is we're allowed to have different opinions and perspectives (at least as long as some in this thread don't get their way). When you don't view COVID as deadly to 99% of people (because of facts), there wouldn't be much risk, would there? When you don't view COVID as a legitimate "pandemic", you wouldn't view it as a "war", would ya? When you view firing unvaxxed medical professionals to manufacture a self-inflicted "crisis", you wouldn't have much sympathy, would ya? I also don't view pushing modern medicine, which has been proven to ruin lives despite any helpful effects, as very heroic.

There are plenty of ways to be a hero. Let's not water the terms "hero" and "front lines" down with hyperbole. From day 1, the media's goal was to portray medical professionals in such a light that would make it hard to criticize them or not view them in such a way. If you went against the grain, you were bullied by the people who view them as heroes. Same stands today, apparently. Ironic how the left is supposed to be social justice warriors for individualism and against bullying, yet are the biggest offenders of being bullies to get people to conform.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

"Despicable" could describe attempts to denigrate the life-saving work of nurses and doctors during a global pandemic. But I guess, to you, risking your health for your fellow Americans is only heroic if you have a gun or a firehose in your hand?

Didnt they all sign up for those paid jobs? Or no, they only should work during the easy times, no crime, no fires and no sickness? I'd tip my hat to volunteers, not those collecting their salaries and overtime.

Should I also give a tip at dunkin donuts for someone simply performing their job?




Edited of yes the HYPOCRISY! After 9/11 cops are your buddies, now its "defund the police"


Nypd during the "pandemic" was rerouted to "protect the Gucci" store in soho. When SOME were stocking up on toilet paper and supplies, other robbing high end stores. Hypebole it is NOT

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Didnt they all sign up for those paid jobs? Or no, they only should work during the easy times, no crime, no fires and no sickness? I'd tip my hat to volunteers, not those collecting their salaries and overtime.

Should I also give a tip at dunkin donuts for someone simply performing their job?


Edited of yes the HYPOCRISY! After 9/11 cops are your buddies, now its "defund the police"

The PoPo are like lawyers, everyone hates them till they really need one.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Didnt they all sign up for those paid jobs? Or no, they only should work during the easy times, no crime, no fires and no sickness? I'd tip my hat to volunteers, not those collecting their salaries and overtime.

Should I also give a tip at dunkin donuts for someone simply performing their job?


Edited of yes the HYPOCRISY! After 9/11 cops are your buddies, now its "defund the police"

Cops are "my buddies"? Say what? And I suppose you've never paid the check for a military veteran, or thanked someone for doing something?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am as guilty as anyone in this thread, but maybe it's time for all of us to stop feeding.

You're probably right.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I'm seeing an excess of ONLY 4-500k..on a population of 330 million. .12% could be a rounding error. We shut down the world for that?

Anyhow, people with type 1 diabetes not their fault, people with type 2 due to bad nutrition their fault. Same for smokers and people not wearing seatbelts. I think they should have some accountability or higher premiums, but the masses shouldnt bear the brunt of the cost, or the "safety " for them

Fiscally conservative
Socially liberal

For the record my dad passed in 2014 and doctors asked if he had traveled to the middle east as the symptoms mirrored MERS. Covid has been around, but only recently became a partisian disease

Pretty stark looking at the graph. This is for US only.

The data also indicates that after Mar 2021 and the availability of vaccines, the excess deaths declined significantly (while still being notably higher).

I think it is important to note that every day people die due to accidents and disease, both self-created and not. These numbers represent people who theoretically should not have died. And accountability should be placed at the feet of a society who refuses to do what is our moral obligation to others.

People like to pretend that vaccines, shutdowns, testing, and the like did not work. The simple fact is that we will never know, since a large percentage of our society refused from the get-go to even attempt, or immediately tried to (initially)deny the existence of the virus, or 'get back to business as usual' since it didn't affect them personally.

Not one epidemiologist thought that 14 days was enough to "Stop the Spread". Consensus was 90-120 days with 80% participation, and extensive testing, contact tracing and isolation. We never got much above 65% and the other prongs were never able to be instituted.

[Deertick]

Some idiot will blame the vaccines on the excess deaths and then ask "prove me wrong".

But that is where we are. Distorted timelines, false narratives, whole cloth fabrications. Disparaging healthcare professionals as highly paid, propped-up media puppets? Blaming vaccine mandates for those whose job it is to make us better, not worse, for the 'manufactured crisis"? Less than 2% have quit due to vaccine policies (both for and against). Nearly 20% have left due to "burnout" (various reasons).

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

The great thing about this country is we're allowed to have different opinions and perspectives (at least as long as some in this thread don't get their way). When you don't view COVID as deadly to 99% of people (because of facts), there wouldn't be much risk, would there? When you don't view COVID as a legitimate "pandemic", you wouldn't view it as a "war", would ya? When you view firing unvaxxed medical professionals to manufacture a self-inflicted "crisis", you wouldn't have much sympathy, would ya? I also don't view pushing modern medicine, which has been proven to ruin lives despite any helpful effects, as very heroic.

There are plenty of ways to be a hero. Let's not water the terms "hero" and "front lines" down with hyperbole. From day 1, the media's goal was to portray medical professionals in such a light that would make it hard to criticize them or not view them in such a way. If you went against the grain, you were bullied by the people who view them as heroes. Same stands today, apparently. Ironic how the left is supposed to be social justice warriors for individualism and against bullying, yet are the biggest offenders of being bullies to get people to conform.

Yes, you are anti-bullying and productive in this conversation considering you literally accused someone of pooping and peeing their pants and told them to go change themselves. You learned this style from a former President so not sure if I can truly blame you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by deertick

some idiot will blame the vaccines on the excess deaths and then ask "prove me wrong".

But that is where we are. Distorted timelines, false narratives, whole cloth fabrications. Disparaging healthcare professionals as highly paid, propped-up media puppets? Blaming vaccine mandates for those whose job it is to make us better, not worse, for the 'manufactured crisis"? Less than 2% have quit due to vaccine policies (both for and against). Nearly 20% have left due to "burnout" (various reasons).

USA!! USA!! USA!! As Dylan sang, it's a wonder that we still know how to breathe.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Yes, you are anti-bullying and productive in this conversation considering you literally accused someone of pooping and peeing their pants and told them to go change themselves. You learned this style from a former President so not sure if I can truly blame you.

At the rate we're going, former and future. God help us, and I'm pretty conservative.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Cops are "my buddies"? Say what? And I suppose you've never paid the check for a military veteran, or thanked someone for doing something?

Not you in particular, the usa in general. You owrsoanlly didnt feel the least bit patriotic after 9/11?

And yes, I thank people for their service to protect our freedom, and I realize many signed up for the benefits and pooped and peed themselves when they were called for active service. I'm not so sure they 2anted extra accolades for serving though. That's a present day entitlement for doing your job apparently

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Carter08

...considering you literally accused someone of pooping and peeing their pants and told them to go change themselves. You learned this style from a former President so not sure if I can truly blame you.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

At the rate we're going, former and future. God help us, and I'm pretty conservative.

Depends..........

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Not you in particular, the usa in general. You owrsoanlly didnt feel the least bit patriotic after 9/11?

Yes, I did. I lived in NYC at the time, breathed the toxic air for days and had friends who lost family members that day. That patriotic feeling didn't make me feel any more or less that cops were "my buddies"

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Yes, you are anti-bullying and productive in this conversation considering you literally accused someone of pooping and peeing their pants and told them to go change themselves. You learned this style from a former President so not sure if I can truly blame you.

I just realized he never answered my question. At this point I feel we all have our answer.

In fact, at the chronological age of 27 (almost 28), my biological age is early 20s.

You didn't list your intellectual age.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I just realized he never answered my question. At this point I feel we all have our answer.


You didn't list your intellectual age.

Lots of literal and figurative scatology on this thread.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Yes, you are anti-bullying and productive in this conversation considering you literally accused someone of pooping and peeing their pants and told them to go change themselves. You learned this style from a former President so not sure if I can truly blame you.

Don't play the "you're a racist" card, especially in a conversation which is not about nor has it included race in any way, shape, or form.

Your Trump Derangement Syndrome is showing. I have yet to mention Trump.

Originally Posted by Deertick

I just realized he never answered my question. At this point I feel we all have our answer.


You didn't list your intellectual age.

I would love to know what I've said that has been factually wrong. Does it agree with your agenda/point of view? Nope. But that doesn't make me stupid.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

I would love to know what I've said that has been factually wrong. Does it agree with your agenda/point of view? Nope. But that doesn't make me stupid.

Your agreement/disagreement with my "agenda" doesn't factor into any assessment of your intelligence.

Nearly every post of yours skews the scoring heartily in a sub-optimal direction, unfortunately.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Your agreement/disagreement with my "agenda" doesn't factor into any assessment of your intelligence.

Nearly every post of yours skews the scoring heartily in a sub-optimal direction, unfortunately.

How did you put it...

"He never answer my question"

[steve B]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33858372/

Use of face masks (KN95 and valved-respirator) resulted in significant increases in CO2 concentrations, which exceeded the 8-h NIOSH exposure threshold limit value-weighted average (TLV-TWA).


My paycheck does not come from the medical profession, construction, any chemical-based work, or cold storage facility work. I'm not soft, nor do I have trouble breathing. In fact, at the chronological age of 27 (almost 28), my biological age is early 20s. I take tremendous care of my body. I choose not to let my quality of life be limited by the fear of others. I actually believe this makes me the opposite of fragile, but thank you for attempting to tear me down.

That's an interesting study.
Their conclusions say a powered air purifying respirator is much better, which pretty much didn't really require a study.
It also doesn't recommend not using other masks. And it doesn't test other masks.

None of that invalidates that thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people routinely wear a mask for extended periods of time with few ill effects.
It's really risk management, in the example Ben mentioned, the employee had a choice of breathing air laden with cement dust or wearing a mask which probably elevated his co2 levels. Which would you choose?

In the case of covid, the choice is less clear, but to go with your "fear" claim, aren't you basically trading one fear -covid- for another -raised co2 levels?

Which is more reasonable?

Knowing even basic filtration concepts, it was easy to see that any mask would be of some help. The early claim the only n95 was useful was a major error.
The one I used during the height of things was a multi layer cloth with the outer layer being non woven polypropylene. Which tests as roughly equivalent to N95 all on its own. Plus it was washable and reusable.
That never caused me any problem, even during summer when heat and humidity typically bothers me a lot. my typical use was for getting groceries which takes about an hour in store maybe a bit longer if it was busy.
Currently I don't wear one unless I think the overall situation is very iffy.

I didn't bother outdoors or in the car.

Overall, I think the panic some people have over slightly elevated co2 is just an excuse to not do something that may be uncomfortable for a fairly brief time.

*I've worked in many environments where the air quality was poor. Not cement pointing poor except for maybe the one place which sawed slabs from marble blocks. The top 5?
Place that processed fish remnants into mink food. Yes, their entire business was making big blocks of frozen rotted fish. One scale on a shoe could make the smell follow you for a week.
Sewage treatment plant.... at least once you left you aired out in a couple minutes.
Machine shop running automatic machines. Had a nice oil fog on humid August days.
That marble block company, I usually went when their stuff was broken down. Which meant they'd turned the water off and the rock dust was free to be blown around.
Low level nuclear waste compactor room. Actually not all that bad. No smell, but obviously there was a bit of radiation around. I did lose a wrench I set down in the wrong place.

Plating plants, semi conductor manufaturers, lead extruders.... different concerns, but usually not with the air.

I don't worry much about exposure to chemicals or much of anything else.

**yes, I eventually did get covid, from another volunteer at a bike charity. Probably originally from one of the clients. After all three shots and stopping mask use.
Weirdest sickness I've ever had tested negative while actively sick, and positive after. 5-6 different symptoms, but each one got its own day. Like tiredness one day, next day felt great but congested, then the next was fever etc.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

This is a totally fair question. History is indeed full of reasons to distrust government. In many ways, the post-New Deal America and the level of prosperity attained by the masses during that time was unparalleled in human history. The way I look at it, assuming one has a basic level of trust in say, elections, we the people have the ability to decide (with many caveats, of course) who is in charge of things. While all people are imperfect (and thus are the systems they devise and work within), I think America has put together and sustained something pretty remarkable, and I'd hate to see it all fall apart. History has shown that once people stop believing in government altogether, things tend not to go well.

The number of things the government does where we trust them is way too large to really try to mention it all.

"We" trust the government to assure a more or less safe food supply. What's "safe" or "clean is debatable, but the odds of getting say some bad beef is much lower than it would be if it was unregulated.

"We" trust them to ensure our air is sort of clean. And compared to say 1970 its WAY better. One of the particulate regs in the 80's was fought by industry until they realized the equipment to comply made their stuff more efficient with some very interesting cost reductions.

"we" trust them to operate a fairly safe highway system

"we" trust them to ensure that airlines are safe.. (Baggage being lost and flights cancelled is much less regulated)

IS everything the government does a benefit to me? Of course not. Do they do some really bad things? Again, of course.
But overall, I'd trust them over PSA..

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's an interesting study.
Their conclusions say a powered air purifying respirator is much better, which pretty much didn't really require a study.
It also doesn't recommend not using other masks. And it doesn't test other masks.

None of that invalidates that thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people routinely wear a mask for extended periods of time with few ill effects.
It's really risk management, in the example Ben mentioned, the employee had a choice of breathing air laden with cement dust or wearing a mask which probably elevated his co2 levels. Which would you choose?

In the case of covid, the choice is less clear, but to go with your "fear" claim, aren't you basically trading one fear -covid- for another -raised co2 levels?

Which is more reasonable?

Knowing even basic filtration concepts, it was easy to see that any mask would be of some help. The early claim the only n95 was useful was a major error.
The one I used during the height of things was a multi layer cloth with the outer layer being non woven polypropylene. Which tests as roughly equivalent to N95 all on its own. Plus it was washable and reusable.
That never caused me any problem, even during summer when heat and humidity typically bothers me a lot. my typical use was for getting groceries which takes about an hour in store maybe a bit longer if it was busy.
Currently I don't wear one unless I think the overall situation is very iffy.

I didn't bother outdoors or in the car.

Overall, I think the panic some people have over slightly elevated co2 is just an excuse to not do something that may be uncomfortable for a fairly brief time.

*I've worked in many environments where the air quality was poor. Not cement pointing poor except for maybe the one place which sawed slabs from marble blocks. The top 5?
Place that processed fish remnants into mink food. Yes, their entire business was making big blocks of frozen rotted fish. One scale on a shoe could make the smell follow you for a week.
Sewage treatment plant.... at least once you left you aired out in a couple minutes.
Machine shop running automatic machines. Had a nice oil fog on humid August days.
That marble block company, I usually went when their stuff was broken down. Which meant they'd turned the water off and the rock dust was free to be blown around.
Low level nuclear waste compactor room. Actually not all that bad. No smell, but obviously there was a bit of radiation around. I did lose a wrench I set down in the wrong place.

Plating plants, semi conductor manufaturers, lead extruders.... different concerns, but usually not with the air.

I don't worry much about exposure to chemicals or much of anything else.

**yes, I eventually did get covid, from another volunteer at a bike charity. Probably originally from one of the clients. After all three shots and stopping mask use.
Weirdest sickness I've ever had tested negative while actively sick, and positive after. 5-6 different symptoms, but each one got its own day. Like tiredness one day, next day felt great but congested, then the next was fever etc.

Who are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't be comfortable with? Isn't that a basic fundamental right we can all get behind?

Shocking that you still got COVID. No idea how after all 3 jabs. And you lived. Amazing.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Again, until someone can explain why healthier lifestyles/eating habits weren't/aren't promoted, any pro-mask/COVID fear mongering argument is worthless.

Those things are and have been promoted for decades.
Even to the point of government over reach, not usually on the part of the overall program, but the local people implementing it.

https://www.fns.usda.gov/programs

https://www.americanprogress.org/art...ting-exercise/

https://www.myplate.gov/

Being healthy and eating right is a good thing, but it's not the answer to everything.