Jacob deGrom most Ks in first 200 games

1952boyntoncollector · #1 08-15-2022, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D.

People make this argument, but if a successful closer is just a failed starter, why doesn't EVERY team have a top of the line closer?

Guys who can do the job and do it for an extended period of time are actually pretty rare. Rivera, Hoffman, Wagner, etc.

It's kind of like people who argue against DH's being in the Hall of Fame. The DH has been around longer than I have, and I'm not exactly young. Even closers...if you think about the original "firemen" like Gossage and Fingers, you're talking primes in the late 70's/early 80's 40+ years ago. Even when you started to see more "one-inning" closers was 30+ years ago.

The game evolves...if we're only going to put 300 game winners in the Hall, we're done putting in pitchers. Just like if you're going to put every 400 HR hitter in there, ya gonna have to build a new wing to the hall.

Smoltz would of been an HOF closer , but how many closers would be HOF starting pitchers and at what ratio

There are a TON of number 2 pitchers on teams that would be all star closers.

many closers only have 2 pitches..its real hard to go through a lineup 3 times with that stuff even if both pitches are great..

packs · #2 08-16-2022, 09:23 AM

Most teams have a hard time finding reliable closers so if there was some number 2 starter on the team who could finish games with their eyes closed, they would be.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #3 08-16-2022, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Most teams have a hard time finding reliable closers so if there was some number 2 starter on the team who could finish games with their eyes closed, they would be.

I disagree. A #2 starter (or any quality starter) is more valuable than the best reliever. If a pitcher can give me 200 quality innings over the course of a season how is the guy who gives me 60 such innings more valuable? Runs don't care when they're scored. Your closer doesn't do you much good if you never have the lead!

1952boyntoncollector · #4 08-16-2022, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Most teams have a hard time finding reliable closers so if there was some number 2 starter on the team who could finish games with their eyes closed, they would be.

disagree, you need a number 2 starter to win playoff series ....no team would take a solid number 2 starter and make them in a closer...now if the closer could be a number 2 pitcher they would convert them..im sure if you look at the salaries and value of money that will show you as well.. i have seen washed up starting pitchers ie. Jose Mesa et al. who become decent closers but never seen a washed up closer become a number 2 starter for a number of years or at least much much much more rare...

remember lots of number 2 starters go to the HOF or are at least argued...i would say andy petitte would be a number 2 starter for instance..

packs · #5 08-16-2022, 02:32 PM

I'm not saying the number 2 should close, I'm questioning whether he could.

1952boyntoncollector · #6 08-16-2022, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I'm not saying the number 2 should close, I'm questioning whether he could.

of course they could...not many failed closers are number 2 starters versus failed number 3-5 pitchers leading their team in saves for a year or so or more

Look at Tom Gordon, when he tailed off he became a closer... It can be argued Mariano Rivera was a failed Starter.

Wilie Hernandez failed starter....

i dont see Eric Gagne lighting it up as a starting pitcher....

in fact usually when you fail a closer you could fund yourself without any job......you always hear about bad closers giving up tons of runs in non save situations but squeak by on save situations..so when the saves stop coming sometimes they out of league in a year or so....if fail as a starter you can always be a reliever even if not a closer..

Its not like kimbrel will becaome a starter if he loses his closer job, its more likely he out of the league in a few years if that happens for example...

if walker bueler comes back next year, i bet he would be a better closer than half the closers out there if dodgers decide to switch him

packs · #7 08-16-2022, 03:06 PM

I think you're discounting what closers do and how difficult it is to be an elite closer for a long period of time. There are very few closers with any kind of longevity.

I don't support what you're saying about failed starters either. So what if a guy started out as one thing in pro ball and became another? Why is that discounted? What are you looking to take away? Mariano Rivera was a shortstop when he got signed. Jorge Posada was a second baseman when he started his career in the minors.

Mike D. · #8 08-16-2022, 04:59 PM

Yes, two different positions, with two different skill sets.

Nobody says "most shortstops could play second base, so there shouldn't be any second basemen in the hall of fame."

Or maybe they do, but those people are probably kinda nuts.

1952boyntoncollector · #9 08-16-2022, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I think you're discounting what closers do and how difficult it is to be an elite closer for a long period of time. There are very few closers with any kind of longevity.

I don't support what you're saying about failed starters either. So what if a guy started out as one thing in pro ball and became another? Why is that discounted? What are you looking to take away? Mariano Rivera was a shortstop when he got signed. Jorge Posada was a second baseman when he started his career in the minors.

you keep moving the goal posts....we are talking about pitching..yeah all great players that were pitching in the major leagues may of been hitters at one time as they were elite athletes growing up..so waht.. Heck there is a DH now so its just about pitching and dont need to bring up the fact about them being hitters.

So show me all of these guys that used to close that are now good Starting pitchers ..i can name you a LOT of good closers that were failed starters.......yeah may be hard for pitchers who werent good enough to start to fulfill a job as closer and those are hard to find.....agree its hard to find a closer from that pool of talent.....i argue its not that hard to find a closer from the 25th-40th best Starting pitcher in mlb..which i would assume is about a 2nd starter on most teams...

Can probably run down the list of number 2 starters and the closer on their team and given a choice of closer, we would rather have the SP be the closer ...Pablo Lopez would be better than whoever the marlins use to close for example.....

you also forget a starting pitcher who may have to hold back some velocity and some pitches for the 2nd and 3rd time through the lineup doesnt have to worry about that when pitching 1 inning.......2 and 3 run leads are still 'saves', it doesnt matter how much a team is up, a starting pitcher still needs great stats to be considered an all star....Wins arent enough as has been discussed at length..

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