"1965 Swedish Candy Clay" now "1968 Dutch Gum Clay"??

[Peter_Spaeth]

He is not a man I would have picked for redemption. It is indeed fascinating.

[Exhibitman]

Ali was also deprived of the prime of his career, 1967-70. For my money, prime Ali beats prime Tyson every time, just the way he handled Liston.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Ali was also deprived of the prime of his career, 1967-70. For my money, prime Ali beats prime Tyson every time, just the way he handled Liston.

I can completely accept that thought pattern and have them close. I give the advantage to Tyson based on having an ideal fight style to beat Ali. His combo tricks developed to enter too close for defense on larger fighters would have devastated Ali's defense by entering his zone consistently. His height weakness was a consistent strength. Could Ali have learned how to fight Tyson? Sure, but the first fight would have been nothing he had seen in his career. Liston was just power and a statue within close proximity in comp to Tyson. Just my thoughts.

Here's a new video of a 56 year old Tyson at likely half to 1/3rd of his prime speed showing how to close space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmJJK7Ac4Fk

[Peter_Spaeth]

I mean who knows, but Ali did beat Foreman at a time when Foreman was considered invincible.

[D. Bergin]

I understand why Tyson is heavily collected and I don't disagree with the reasons, but there's several living Heavyweights I'd rank above him.

Lennox
Holyfield
Holmes

maybe even Foreman

I'd rank Tyson above both Klitschko brothers historically, but I think prime Tyson would have had his hands full with Vitali.

Prime Tyson would have likely knocked out Wlad, but slightly past prime Tyson would have had his hands full with him also. Especially the later version of Wlad that learned how stay out of danger on the inside by leaning his full body weight onto his opponent, and wearing his guy down that way. Tyson would have become super frustrated if he couldn't find the space to knock him out early.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I understand why Tyson is heavily collected and I don't disagree with the reasons, but there's several living Heavyweights I'd rank above him.

Lennox
Holyfield
Holmes

maybe even Foreman

I'd rank Tyson above both Klitschko brothers historically, but I think prime Tyson would have had his hands full with Vitali.

Prime Tyson would have likely knocked out Wlad, but slightly past prime Tyson would have had his hands full with him also. Especially the later version of Wlad that learned how stay out of danger on the inside by leaning his full body weight onto his opponent, and wearing his guy down that way. Tyson would have become super frustrated if he couldn't find the space to knock him out early.

An ancient George Foreman came close to knocking out Holyfield in his prime, or at least rattled him pretty badly. How good could he have been? He always struck me, and admittedly I am not an expert, as an amazing athlete but not the world's most skilled boxer. My memory of Holyfield Foreman is that even though Foreman was well past his prime and outmatched, you could see his boxing skills were superior.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

An ancient George Foreman came close to knocking out Holyfield in his prime, or at least rattled him pretty badly. How good could he have been? He always struck me, and admittedly I am not an expert, as an amazing athlete but not the world's most skilled boxer. My memory of Holyfield Foreman is that even though Foreman was well past his prime and outmatched, you could see his boxing skills were superior.

I think if young George Foreman had been as smart and patient as old George Foreman, we might be having an entirely different conversation about All-Time Greatest, then we are right now.

As far as Holyfield goes, guy was just a grinder. Small Heavyweight that over-achieved and held his own or straight up beat guys much bigger then him.

Tyson might have been shorter, but there's no question he was always a Heavyweight. Tyson was weighing in at 214 lb's at 18 years old. Holyfield was fighting at under 180 at 22 yrs. old and didn't even leave the Cruiserweight division until he was almost 26.