So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[insidethewrapper]

A much better fielder ? Did you ever see Kaline play Right Field ? His arm was unbelievable, a line drive throw to Home Plate. Again I think they were both great outfielders. Clemente had 100's of outfield assists. I was surprised that Kaline had more SB's.

[mrreality68]

great thread and great conversation.

This thread has opened my eyes more about Kaline and everyone is right Clemente and his personality was larger than life.

It is real close but I would probably give it to Clemente.

[ClementeFanOh]

Folks- my ID should give my vote away Truth is they are both incredible. Someone above said RC was “overrated”- right, good call (sarcasm font)…One additional Roberto stat that was true a decade ago, was that he is the only player to appear in at least 14 World Series games, and to hit safely in all of them. Don’t know if recent history has changed that. In other words, clutch…Roberto was great, absolutely NOT overrated, and same for Al Kaline. Trent King

[cgjackson222]

One point that seems fairly obvious, but I don't know if it has been mentioned is Clemente's longevity.

Kaline played in 4 more seasons than Clemente, but was not a a very productive player after 1967. He never got above a WAR of 3 from 1968 through 1974, from age 33 through 39. In his final year, despite having over 600 plate appearances, Kaline slugged .389 and had a WAR of less than 1.

Clemente on the other hand had many of his best years from age 33 and onward. His average WAR from age 33 thru his last year at age 37 was 6.66.
If he could have just gotten over 4 for the next couple years, he would have ended up with a career war over 100, probably right behind Christy Mathewson with the 29th highest WAR ever.

Yes, Kaline was a more productive player than Clemente before age 25. But if Clemente hadn't passed away in 1972, his career stats could have been a lot stronger.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Folks- my ID should give my vote away Truth is they are both incredible. Someone above said RC was “overrated”- right, good call (sarcasm font)…One additional Roberto stat that was true a decade ago, was that he is the only player to appear in at least 14 World Series games, and to hit safely in all of them. Don’t know if recent history has changed that. In other words, clutch…Roberto was great, absolutely NOT overrated, and same for Al Kaline. Trent King

That someone was Bill James. I'll see if I can find his analysis. He rated Roberto somewhere in the 70s (as of 2003 so it would be lower now no doubt).

[Peter_Spaeth]

This may be hard to read given the format but this is James' general discussion of why he thinks people place too much importance on a right fielder's throwing arm.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3u...mente&f=falseI

Still looking for his Clemente specific thoughts.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This may be hard to read given the format but this is James' general discussion of why he thinks people place too much importance on a right fielder's throwing arm.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3u...mente&f=falseI

Still looking for his Clemente specific thoughts.

In the Bill James book you linked to, Bill James ranks Clemente as the 8th best Righfielder of all-time. He ranks Al Kaline as 11th, so not quite in the top 10.

It is very difficult to find a source that ranks Kaline ahead of Clemente (other than this thread).

The Athletic top 100: Clemente at 40, Kaline at 51

Baseball Egg Top 100: Clemente 32, Kaline 42

ESPN Top 100: Clemente at 27, Kaline at 71 (the gap clearly shouldn't be that big, but I do think you can make a case for Clemente in the top 30).

SABR (from 1999) has Clemente 20, Kaline 59.

The Sporting News Top 100 (from 1998) has Clemente at 20, Kaline at 71

The one source I did find was this Bill James article from 2000 which ranks Kaline as 9 and Clemente as 11 for right-fielders. The fact that it lists Paul Waner ahead of both them though is a bit troubling.

One could say that top 100 lists are typically popularity contests, and to a certain extent they may be. But the Baseball Egg article follows a more quantitative formula. Note that Dan Holmes, the guy that runs the Baseball Egg site mentioned that he is going to be re-ranking the top 100 soon though, so the current ranking of Clemente at 32 and Kaline at 42 could change. I personally would rank them with Clemente around 35 and Kaline around 40.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

In the Bill James book you linked to, Bill James ranks Clemente as the 8th best Righfielder of all-time. He ranks Al Kaline as 11th, so not quite in the top 10.

It is very difficult to find a source that ranks Kaline ahead of Clemente (other than this thread).

The Athletic top 100: Clemente at 40, Kaline at 51

Baseball Egg Top 100: Clemente 32, Kaline 42

ESPN Top 100: Clemente at 27, Kaline at 71 (the gap clearly shouldn't be that big, but I do think you can make a case for Clemente in the top 30).

SABR (from 1999) has Clemente 20, Kaline 59.

The Sporting News Top 100 (from 1998) has Clemente at 20, Kaline at 71

The one source I did find was this Bill James article from 2000 which ranks Kaline as 9 and Clemente as 11. The fact that it lists Paul Waner ahead of both them though is a bit troubling.

One could say that top 100 lists are typically popularity contests, and to a certain extent they may be. But the Baseball Egg article follows a more quantitative formula. Note that Dan Holmes, the guy that runs the Baseball Egg site mentioned that he is going to be re-ranking the top 100 soon though, so the current ranking of Clemente at 32 and Kaline at 42 could change. I personally would rank them with Clemente around 35 and Kaline around 40.

I need to check Hall of Stats. Hmmmm, Clemente 35 Kaline 39.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Folks- my ID should give my vote away Truth is they are both incredible. Someone above said RC was “overrated”- right, good call (sarcasm font)…One additional Roberto stat that was true a decade ago, was that he is the only player to appear in at least 14 World Series games, and to hit safely in all of them. Don’t know if recent history has changed that. In other words, clutch…Roberto was great, absolutely NOT overrated, and same for Al Kaline. Trent King

That was me. He is. His reputation and fame and iconic player status are divorced from his actual performance. Which I called "great". Kaline is rated about right I think; Clemente is generally overrated. His actual production is not near his renown and reputation, where he's become probably a top 10 player. He has many fans, but fans are not the same as performance. I don't think a streak trivia stat is particularly relevant to honest analysis of career performance.

[Peter_Spaeth]

James rated Clemente 74th of all time in 2003. 20 years later, I imagine he would rate him 10 places lower. I wish I could find what he said, I don't have the book any longer. We could then have a meaningful discussion beyond the outraged declarations of how great he was. I am surprised no one has attempted a new take on James' 2003 book in the intervening years.

[G1911]

James 2003 book was what got me into the statistical side of baseball. I don’t agree with everything, but he is always insightful and unique in the approach. The amount of amusing trivia and anecdote in that volume is at least as good as the math.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

James 2003 book was what got me into the statistical side of baseball. I don’t agree with everything, but he is always insightful and unique in the approach. The amount of amusing trivia and anecdote in that volume is at least as good as the math.

Yes, for sure his views are just one more data point, although a pretty informed one.

I LOVED his explanation of why he was confident rating Josh Gibson so high despite the relative lack of reliable stats. It basically came down to, who in history has ever LOOKED more like a hitter. Brilliant, and probably true. Check out some of those great photos of Gibson in his flannels and it's hard to disagree.

[Shoeless Moe]

Man that is close. I never saw either. Looking at stats I'd give the very slight edge to Clemente.

If you compare both from about age 32 on Clemente was still going strong Kaline best years were behind him.

Clemente - Kaline
AGE BA BA
32 .357 .308
33 .291 .287
34 .345 .272
35 .352 .278
36 .341 .294
37 .312 .313

Not that Kaline's BA is bad, he right around .300 for the most part......but Clemente at 32 and older puts up those All Time Greats (Williams, Cobb, Ruth) BA's .357, .345, .352, .341. Not once but 4 times.

To me that gives the edge to Clemente, as they were both great in their 20's.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

A much better fielder ? Did you ever see Kaline play Right Field ? His arm was unbelievable, a line drive throw to Home Plate. Again I think they were both great outfielders. Clemente had 100's of outfield assists. I was surprised that Kaline had more SB's.

Agreed. Al had 10 gold gloves and a great arm. I tend to like Kaline better simply because I grew up an American League guy. And yes Clemente had an awesome 1971 World Series, but don't forget that Kaline hit .379 with 2 HR and 8 RBI in his only World Series--in the last season of the higher mound during the year of the pitcher.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

A much better fielder ? Did you ever see Kaline play Right Field ? His arm was unbelievable, a line drive throw to Home Plate. Again I think they were both great outfielders. Clemente had 100's of outfield assists. I was surprised that Kaline had more SB's.

Assists
Clemente 255
Kaline 146

Total Zone Runs
Clemente 205
Mays 173
Kaline 153

Clemente was the best defensive outfielder of his era by a wide margin. He led in NL in outfield assists as a rookie and developed a reputation as the best arm in baseball. Players knew not to challenge his arm, yet he still threw out more runners than anyone else.