So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

Peter_Spaeth · #1 09-15-2022, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Folks- my ID should give my vote away

Truth is they are both incredible. Someone above said RC was �overrated�- right, good call (sarcasm font)�One additional Roberto stat that was true a decade ago, was that he is the only player to appear in at least 14 World Series games, and to hit safely in all of them. Don�t know if recent history has changed that. In other words, clutch�Roberto was great, absolutely NOT overrated, and same for Al Kaline. Trent King

That someone was Bill James. I'll see if I can find his analysis. He rated Roberto somewhere in the 70s (as of 2003 so it would be lower now no doubt).

Peter_Spaeth · #2 09-15-2022, 04:17 PM

This may be hard to read given the format but this is James' general discussion of why he thinks people place too much importance on a right fielder's throwing arm.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3u...mente&f=falseI

Still looking for his Clemente specific thoughts.

cgjackson222 · #3 09-15-2022, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This may be hard to read given the format but this is James' general discussion of why he thinks people place too much importance on a right fielder's throwing arm.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3u...mente&f=falseI

Still looking for his Clemente specific thoughts.

In the Bill James book you linked to, Bill James ranks Clemente as the 8th best Righfielder of all-time. He ranks Al Kaline as 11th, so not quite in the top 10.

It is very difficult to find a source that ranks Kaline ahead of Clemente (other than this thread).

The Athletic top 100: Clemente at 40, Kaline at 51

Baseball Egg Top 100: Clemente 32, Kaline 42

ESPN Top 100: Clemente at 27, Kaline at 71 (the gap clearly shouldn't be that big, but I do think you can make a case for Clemente in the top 30).

SABR (from 1999) has Clemente 20, Kaline 59.

The Sporting News Top 100 (from 1998) has Clemente at 20, Kaline at 71

The one source I did find was this Bill James article from 2000 which ranks Kaline as 9 and Clemente as 11 for right-fielders. The fact that it lists Paul Waner ahead of both them though is a bit troubling.

One could say that top 100 lists are typically popularity contests, and to a certain extent they may be. But the Baseball Egg article follows a more quantitative formula. Note that Dan Holmes, the guy that runs the Baseball Egg site mentioned that he is going to be re-ranking the top 100 soon though, so the current ranking of Clemente at 32 and Kaline at 42 could change. I personally would rank them with Clemente around 35 and Kaline around 40.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 09-15-2022, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

In the Bill James book you linked to, Bill James ranks Clemente as the 8th best Righfielder of all-time. He ranks Al Kaline as 11th, so not quite in the top 10.

It is very difficult to find a source that ranks Kaline ahead of Clemente (other than this thread).

The Athletic top 100: Clemente at 40, Kaline at 51

Baseball Egg Top 100: Clemente 32, Kaline 42

ESPN Top 100: Clemente at 27, Kaline at 71 (the gap clearly shouldn't be that big, but I do think you can make a case for Clemente in the top 30).

SABR (from 1999) has Clemente 20, Kaline 59.

The Sporting News Top 100 (from 1998) has Clemente at 20, Kaline at 71

The one source I did find was this Bill James article from 2000 which ranks Kaline as 9 and Clemente as 11. The fact that it lists Paul Waner ahead of both them though is a bit troubling.

One could say that top 100 lists are typically popularity contests, and to a certain extent they may be. But the Baseball Egg article follows a more quantitative formula. Note that Dan Holmes, the guy that runs the Baseball Egg site mentioned that he is going to be re-ranking the top 100 soon though, so the current ranking of Clemente at 32 and Kaline at 42 could change. I personally would rank them with Clemente around 35 and Kaline around 40.

I need to check Hall of Stats. Hmmmm, Clemente 35 Kaline 39.

cgjackson222 · #5 09-15-2022, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I need to check Hall of Stats. Hmmmm, Clemente 35 Kaline 39.

I now see the Hall of Stats website with Clemente as 34 and Kaline as 38.

Sounds about right to me

Peter_Spaeth · #6 09-15-2022, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I now see the Hall of Stats website with Clemente as 34 and Kaline as 38.

Sounds about right to me

Was I on an archived version? Odd. Not making it up.

cgjackson222 · #7 09-15-2022, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Was I on an archived version? Odd. Not making it up.

I think the difference is your list has Pujols at 31, and the list I saw doesn't have any active players.

By the way, Hall of Stats ranks Clemente as the 5th best RF ever and Kaline just behind at 6:
http://hallofstats.com/position/rf

In other news, regarding another recent discussion about best catcher ever, Hall of Stats' top 20: 1) Bench 2) Carter 3) Fisk 4) I Rod 5) Piazza 6) Berra 7) Dickey 8) Hartnett 9) Buck Ewing 10) Mauer 11) Ted Simmons 12) Torre 13) Cochrane 14) Campanella 15) G. Tenance 16) Wally Schang 17) Posey 18) Charlie Bennet? 19) Munson 20) Bresnahan (Note that they rank Negro League catchers separately)

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