So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Folks- my ID should give my vote away Truth is they are both incredible. Someone above said RC was “overrated”- right, good call (sarcasm font)…One additional Roberto stat that was true a decade ago, was that he is the only player to appear in at least 14 World Series games, and to hit safely in all of them. Don’t know if recent history has changed that. In other words, clutch…Roberto was great, absolutely NOT overrated, and same for Al Kaline. Trent King

That was me. He is. His reputation and fame and iconic player status are divorced from his actual performance. Which I called "great". Kaline is rated about right I think; Clemente is generally overrated. His actual production is not near his renown and reputation, where he's become probably a top 10 player. He has many fans, but fans are not the same as performance. I don't think a streak trivia stat is particularly relevant to honest analysis of career performance.

[Peter_Spaeth]

James rated Clemente 74th of all time in 2003. 20 years later, I imagine he would rate him 10 places lower. I wish I could find what he said, I don't have the book any longer. We could then have a meaningful discussion beyond the outraged declarations of how great he was. I am surprised no one has attempted a new take on James' 2003 book in the intervening years.

[G1911]

James 2003 book was what got me into the statistical side of baseball. I don’t agree with everything, but he is always insightful and unique in the approach. The amount of amusing trivia and anecdote in that volume is at least as good as the math.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

James 2003 book was what got me into the statistical side of baseball. I don’t agree with everything, but he is always insightful and unique in the approach. The amount of amusing trivia and anecdote in that volume is at least as good as the math.

Yes, for sure his views are just one more data point, although a pretty informed one.

I LOVED his explanation of why he was confident rating Josh Gibson so high despite the relative lack of reliable stats. It basically came down to, who in history has ever LOOKED more like a hitter. Brilliant, and probably true. Check out some of those great photos of Gibson in his flannels and it's hard to disagree.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I think, and it's merely conjecture, that Kaline having his career year at age 20 and then never quite sustaining that level of greatness, where Clemente scuffled a little his first few years and then became a model of consistency even into, what are for many players, his twilight years.

It just leaves you with a different feeling. Kaline was, for all intents and purposes done at 38. Nothing to be ashamed about, but those two last years tarnish how people remember him. Clemente died after his age 37 season hitting .312.

If Kaline had died after his age 37 Season, in which he hit .313, the "what ifs" would've been a huge part of our memory of him. Instead we know what happened. He got old.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I think, and it's merely conjecture, that Kaline having his career year at age 20 and then never quite sustaining that level of greatness, where Clemente scuffled a little his first few years and then became a model of consistency even into, what are for many players, his twilight years.

It just leaves you with a different feeling. Kaline was, for all intents and purposes done at 38. Nothing to be ashamed about, but those two last years tarnish how people remember him. Clemente died after his age 37 season hitting .312.

If Kaline had died after his age 37 Season, in which he hit .313, the "what ifs" would've been a huge part of our memory of him. Instead we know what happened. He got old.

Hey, not get all racist on everyone, but Clemente was Puerto Rican, and was aging like a fine wine, much like Jennifer Lopez.

[Shoeless Moe]

Man that is close. I never saw either. Looking at stats I'd give the very slight edge to Clemente.

If you compare both from about age 32 on Clemente was still going strong Kaline best years were behind him.

Clemente - Kaline
AGE BA BA
32 .357 .308
33 .291 .287
34 .345 .272
35 .352 .278
36 .341 .294
37 .312 .313

Not that Kaline's BA is bad, he right around .300 for the most part......but Clemente at 32 and older puts up those All Time Greats (Williams, Cobb, Ruth) BA's .357, .345, .352, .341. Not once but 4 times.

To me that gives the edge to Clemente, as they were both great in their 20's.