So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clemente and Joe Morgan would be an interesting comparison, although different positions. OPS+ almost identical. Morgan ahead in OBP, Clemente in SLG, although Morgan had more HR. Morgan ahead in WAR. Clemente ahead in H and BA both by comfortable margin. Morgan multiples ahead in SB and BB.

That's a tough one. My bias would be against Morgan here slightly, that .271 batting average always bugs me. He was an amazing player with a legitimate claim to possibly being the greatest 2B of all time. Morgan's OBP is weighted against Clemente trading a lot of walks for singles in BA, they're OPS+ is effectively a rounding error adjusting for league. I'd probably have to pick Morgan on defensive grounds. Clemente was a stud fielder, but RF is a lot less important than 2B defensively. Morgan's advantage in that area probably slightly overcomes their almost parallel offensive performance.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

That's a tough one. My bias would be against Morgan here slightly, that .271 batting average always bugs me. He was an amazing player with a legitimate claim to possibly being the greatest 2B of all time. Morgan's OBP is weighted against Clemente trading a lot of walks for singles in BA, they're OPS+ is effectively a rounding error adjusting for league. I'd probably have to pick Morgan on defensive grounds. Clemente was a stud fielder, but RF is a lot less important than 2B defensively. Morgan's advantage in that area probably slightly overcomes their almost parallel offensive performance.

600 more SB is significant too IMO. And we're not comparing a slugger to a singles hitter, Morgan had more HR. Clemente averaged less than 5 steals a year.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

600 more SB is significant too IMO. And we're not comparing a slugger to a singles hitter, Morgan had more HR.

Definitely shrinks that slugging gap a lot. Their total offense is so close to be another toss up. If Morgan was a RF it might be different, but that production is more valuable from a 2B slot than from RF. .317 hitters are more my cup of tea, but if I knew their future career values and had to draft one, I think Morgan is the right answer by a little bit.

Edit: Morgan had more homers, but Clemente slugged .475 and Morgan .427. Clemente has a significant power advantage, I think.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Definitely shrinks that slugging gap a lot. Their total offense is so close to be another toss up. If Morgan was a RF it might be different, but that production is more valuable from a 2B slot than from RF. .317 hitters are more my cup of tea, but if I knew their future career values and had to draft one, I think Morgan is the right answer by a little bit.

Edit: Morgan had more homers, but Clemente slugged .475 and Morgan .427. Clemente has a significant power advantage, I think.

Yes, but a single and a stolen base gets you to the same place as a double.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes, but a single and a stolen base gets you to the same place as a double.

Which is why I think it effectively eliminates that gap in slugging. Best and as a GM, I'd take Joe Morgan. Personal favorite, I'd take Clemente. Clemente has the advantage of not being a commentator giving dumb takes for decades

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Which is why I think it effectively eliminates that gap in slugging. Best and as a GM, I'd take Joe Morgan. Personal favorite, I'd take Clemente. Clemente has the advantage of not being a commentator giving dumb takes for decades

Oh god what an awful commentator lol. Painful.

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter- I'll skip G1911 from this point forward, he's a "mother ship" candidate
if ever there was one...

I agree with you completely, this really isn't hard. A poster invited a debate
of Clemente vs Kaline, a thought- provoking notion. People weighed in on
both sides. My side is obvious; however, I would never presume to impugn
the accomplishments/skills of a first time ballot HOFer(!). People brought up
interesting stat comparisons that, in my opinion, still favor Roberto. No big
deal...

The problem with the rhetoric being spewed by (almost exclusively) one
source, is that commentary about being overrated isn't even the topic! It's
not, I've triple checked and most commenters' entries support my belief.
Even if the notion of discussing players who are overrated was somehow
introduced, however, I can't square the idea that the flat best players in
baseball history can somehow be "overrated". They have already been
"rated" by numerous indices. I don't know the total number of MLB players
in it's history, so exact percentages are tough to achieve; however, it is
safe to put Clemente and Kaline in the 99.5th percentile of players to ever
play. Let's say you were a teacher who had the privilege of instructing 2
students through their high school years. One averaged 99.5% in the
teacher's classes, while the other averaged a 99.6%. Is it really accurate
to call the 99.5% student "overrated"? Of course not, he was phenomenal.
It is accurate to claim the 99.6% student was "better", by a whisker. Within
the scope of MLB, then, I'd reserve the "overrated" tag for players who
were huge bonus babies but never panned out, or vets who were paid a ton
and didn't live up to the hype. If someone thinks Aaron was a better
outfielder than Mays, or vice versa, that doesn't make the other guy
"overrated". In the mid 2000s, Eric Milton came to the Reds from Minnesota
with a huge contract for the time. His 3 year results were 16-27 with an ERA
of nearly 6. Now THAT guy was overrated!

Things would be so much easier if people could stick to the topic, or at
least have the good grace to start another thread when they just can't
follow the current one- especially when it's a compelling thread. So, you'll
never get to me to agree that Clemente, Kaline, or whoever are somehow
"overrated"- it would be arrogant for me to argue it, and pointless even if I
had an overly developed sense of my ability as a baseball aficionado. Wiser
minds than our own have already placed them in a well deserved premium
class. Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Trent I think we just have different views of the context in which it makes sense to use the term "overrated." We've each given our definitions now; I think it can still be used even within an elite group, and you do not.

That said, do you think it's OK to refer to players everyone would agree are all time greats such as Spahn and Musial as "underrated," and if so, what's the difference?

[ClementeFanOh]

Campyfan- "You hope my weekend gets better"? Well, "good luck to you" since
you decided to go the passive aggressive route.

Since you know zero about me, my favorite musician happens to be Jimi
Hendrix and I was likely aware of the circumstances of his death before
you were (judging by the content of your posts). Your comparison was
odd- and that's the nicest word I can muster at this point. And, again, it
was OFF TOPIC, since the discussion was supposed to be Roberto vs. Al.

I hope your weekend gets better! Trent King

[G1911]

Poster 1: Verbally abuses Poster 2 and calls him a crack addict and insane, who has said nothing to him.

Poster 2: Wishes Poster 1's weekend gets better.

Poster 1: Complains that it is passive aggressive and off-topic.

Classic.

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter- re: Spahn and Musial, definitely another topic for another thread. The
short version is that I'd bet real money that their teammates and fans surely
didn't underrate them. Musial, for example, was in 24 All Star games and
Spahn 14, a gigantic number for a pitcher. You may be drifting into a
comparative card value discussion, which is intriguing as well. I'm going to
watch some sports and actually try to enjoy a beautiful weekend. I'm sure
we will cross paths later, Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Peter- re: Spahn and Musial, definitely another topic for another thread. The
short version is that I'd bet real money that their teammates and fans surely
didn't underrate them. Musial, for example, was in 24 All Star games and
Spahn 14, a gigantic number for a pitcher. You may be drifting into a
comparative card value discussion, which is intriguing as well. I'm going to
watch some sports and actually try to enjoy a beautiful weekend. I'm sure
we will cross paths later, Trent King

No doubt they were very great but my point is that we frequently have threads here where they (and others like Collins) are always identified as being underrated in public perception and the hobby. Without critically examining it, my thinking is that if one is OK with the concept of calling acknowledged all time greats underrated, one should also be OK calling them overrated; but in any event TTYL.

[campyfan39]

It’s been great thanks brother!

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Campyfan- "You hope my weekend gets better"? Well, "good luck to you" since
you decided to go the passive aggressive route.

Since you know zero about me, my favorite musician happens to be Jimi
Hendrix and I was likely aware of the circumstances of his death before
you were (judging by the content of your posts). Your comparison was
odd- and that's the nicest word I can muster at this point. And, again, it
was OFF TOPIC, since the discussion was supposed to be Roberto vs. Al.

I hope your weekend gets better! Trent King