So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clemente and Joe Morgan would be an interesting comparison, although different positions. OPS+ almost identical. Morgan ahead in OBP, Clemente in SLG, although Morgan had more HR. Morgan ahead in WAR. Clemente ahead in H and BA both by comfortable margin. Morgan multiples ahead in SB and BB.

It's funny, Morgan hated advanced metrics, even though they loved him. Had the courage of his convictions anyway!

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

It's funny, Morgan hated advanced metrics, even though they loved him. Had the courage of his convictions anyway!

So true. Joe Morgan the player had an incredible on base percentage, leading the league in 4 out 5 years between 1972 and 176 (he finished 2nd in 1973). But as announcer, he discredited the concept of OBP being an important factor in winning games. He just didn't like advanced metrics, like you said.

He was one of most balanced players--he did everything well--he stole more bases in his era than anyone not named Lou Brock, and stole at a higher % thank Brock, he hit for average, good power for a 2nd basemen, walked a ton, struck out relatively infrequently, all while fielding decently at 2nd base.

Clemente has been my favorite player since I was a child. And despite the fact that I loathed Joe Morgan as a broadcaster, I'd give him the slight nod over Clemente as a player. However, if Clemente had continued his solid play for a few more years into the mid to late 70's he could have leapfrogged Morgan.

[isiahfan]

Haven't really loked at the stats yet...but Morgan also played on a great team for a decade (Reds/Phillies) surrounded by HOF...Clemente had Stargell...and an AS here and there (Groat, etc.).

It is not as altering as say playing for the Yankees from 1920-1960 when they had loaded line ups and best pitchers for the most part.....so their batters faced lesser rotations and pitchers didn't face Ruth, Gehrig, Joe D, Mantle, etc.

[profholt82]

These guys are so close, both the cornerstone of their teams for many years. Both at 3000 hits(well, 1307 to 1300, but come on). Clemente with the higher career BA (.297 to .317), but Kaline with a lot more HR and RBI (399/1583 to 240/1305). So I think batting is about a wash. Both were excellent fielders with double digit Golden Glove seasons.

Kaline
18 All Star
10 Golden Gloves
1 Batting Championship
0 MVP, although it's easy to argue he had a better 1955 campaign than winner Yogi Berra when you https://www.baseball-reference.com/a..._AL_MVP_voting. Pound sign Yankees bias. Ha!

Clemente
15 All Star
12 Golden Gloves
4 Batting Championships
1 MVP


Let's get into the weeds a bit...

Kaline
1277 Bases on Balls
137 Stolen Bases
65 Caught Stealing

Clemente
623 Bases on Balls
83 Stolen Bases
46 Caught Stealing

Deep Dive statistical comparison:
https://stathead.com/baseball/player...um=0&request=1


In their careers, Kaline played for 22 seasons, 2834 games. Clemente played 18 seasons, 2433 games. And it's worth noting that Kaline's final two seasons fell off dramatically, batting .255 and .262 those years with no Golden Gloves. Meanwhile, Clemente batted .341 and .312 his final two years with Golden Gloves in both. With his tragic demise at 37, we can only guess at what it would have been had he played for 3 or 4 more years. It is worth pointing out that in Kaline's 3rd to last season, he was 37 and batted .313.


So what does all of this information tell me? That it's impossible to say which one is better. They were both excellent, among the greatest players of all time. Both in the hitting and fielding conversations. Even looking purely at statistics, it's practically impossible to choose, they're so close.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by profholt82

These guys are so close, both the cornerstone of their teams for many years. Both at 3000 hits(well, 1307 to 1300, but come on). Clemente with the higher career BA (.297 to .317), but Kaline with a lot more HR and RBI (399/1583 to 240/1305). So I think batting is about a wash. Both were excellent fielders with double digit Golden Glove seasons.

Kaline
18 All Star
10 Golden Gloves
1 Batting Championship
0 MVP, although it's easy to argue he had a better 1955 campaign than winner Yogi Berra when you https://www.baseball-reference.com/a..._AL_MVP_voting. Pound sign Yankees bias. Ha!

Clemente
15 All Star
12 Golden Gloves
4 Batting Championships
1 MVP


Let's get into the weeds a bit...

Kaline
1277 Bases on Balls
137 Stolen Bases
65 Caught Stealing

Clemente
623 Bases on Balls
83 Stolen Bases
46 Caught Stealing

Deep Dive statistical comparison:
https://stathead.com/baseball/player...um=0&request=1


In their careers, Kaline played for 22 seasons, 2834 games. Clemente played 18 seasons, 2433 games. And it's worth noting that Kaline's final two seasons fell off dramatically, batting .255 and .262 those years with no Golden Gloves. Meanwhile, Clemente batted .341 and .312 his final two years with Golden Gloves in both. With his tragic demise at 37, we can only guess at what it would have been had he played for 3 or 4 more years. It is worth pointing out that in Kaline's 3rd to last season, he was 37 and batted .313.


So what does all of this information tell me? That it's impossible to say which one is better. They were both excellent, among the greatest players of all time. Both in the hitting and fielding conversations. Even looking purely at statistics, it's practically impossible to choose, they're so close.

Actually I think your post...whether you like it or not....pretty clearly makes the case for one over the other!

[profholt82]

Ha! I love it. Who? Clemente? I think I'd lean him with career average and batting titles gun to my head, but I consider the Kaline HR power to be an equalizer. I don't know, pouring over those numbers for 20 minutes or so this morning, perhaps I was just too close to it to see the obvious.

[packs]

I think you made a pretty clear case for Clemente. As you noted, Kaline wasn't shorted any portion of his career. He was cooked when he retired. But Clemente was still an All Star player and putting up numbers that garnered him MVP votes every year.

The discussion has been predicated on how similar their numbers are. But I think it's fairly certain Clemente would have eclipsed Kaline if given the additional years, although that assumes he wasn't considering retirement anyway.

[ALR-bishop]

In seeking to collect every Topps card of both players, including variations ( as part of collecting all Topps sets) I have had to pay more for Clemente in total than Kaline. Which I agree proves little as to this debate.

My most expensive Kaline is probably his 61 Dice card ( Clemente did not have one) or his rookie card. Kaline’s 73 “band aid” variation has gotten pretty pricey.

My most expensive Clemente is probably his rookie card, but his 68 3D is up there and is one of my favorite cards. I still need one of his 67 Punch Out variations and his 68 Disc ( have the 67). Also still need his 67 Stand Up to finish that set

Grew up in St. Louis and did see both play. Kaline in the 68 Series

Two great ball players, under or over