Roger Clemens - Where does he rank?

[G1911]

If he was clean, 1-4 range.

But he wasn’t clean. If his career ends after 1995 before he goes to Toronto and apparently starts using, reigniting and turning his career around, he has an astounding 144 ERA+, but only 2,700 innings and a 192-111 record. He chalked up another 2,100 innings at essentially the same performance level while using.

Steroids aren’t magic, they won’t make any pitcher able to do what Clemens did. He probably doesn’t deserve to have his entire second half wiped out completely. He probably doesn’t deserve full credit either, the steroids shouldn’t be dismissed entirely. I don’t know how to account for a middle ground here on any reasonable basis that isn’t completely arbitrary. I would probably put him 10-20th, on that arbitrary balance.

[butchie_t]

Once he juiced, he gets no consideration for anything.

And that goes for all the juicers. Any 'records' set in a juiced condition are tainted and simply do not count. I can get behind these changes to MLB if they had the balls to implement and enforce them.

Butch

[isiahfan]

Didn't realize that Maddux was slightly ahead in IP...wouldn't have guessed that. I think it is right on the rankings...or close to it. Obviously hard to compare against vastly different eras...where guys pitched double headers and usually complete games. I don't think there is anyone I would take over him other than WaJo though.

[bnorth]

He is #1 and it really isn't all that close.

As for the cheating. They all cheated in any way they could, some got caught, some didn't, and then there are those that cheated that get a free pass.

[Rad_Hazard]

I go back and forth on 1 and 2. WaJo is probably the pick for 1, but damn if Cy isn't extremely convincing. Those numbers are incredible and he dominated 2 different eras.

As for Clemens I do think 3 is the right spot after some more thought. Steroids or no, Clemens and Bonds did things that us mere mortals couldn't dream of.

[bnorth]

Since every thread need pics here is my by far favorite possession. I bought this wrong back pair directly from Score back in the day. To keep and own I wouldn't trade them for any other card(s) in the hobby.

[drcy]

His career got a "second wind" due to PEDs.

Also, people don't appreciate lying about what is obviously true.

[Smarti5051]

There is one thing I don't understand about the logic in ranking players with the steroids asterisk. If I try to compare a player like Cap Anson against a player like Mike Trout, there are all sorts of responses of how you can't compare eras, because the fields were different, competition was different, training was different, etc. So, it could be argued that a player that was the best of his generation is the GOAT because you can only really compare him in the context of the era in which he played.

But, in the steroids era, any player connected to steroids is automatically disqualified in the eyes of most folks that debate whether a player is in the running for GOAT at a position. But, it ignores the fact that the overwhelming majority of players the steroid guy was competing against were on a level playing field, because they were all also taking steroids. In the case of Roger Clemens, he has no positive test or physical evidence that he took steroids, but let's take it as gospel he was a regular steroids user. When he was on the mound and throwing to the greats of his day, Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Canseco etc., he was playing against competition the likes of which never existed in every other era of baseball - do, in large part, to the fact these players and most of their teammates were also on steroids.

When we talk about home run records today and the Judge v Maris (or Ruth in 154 games) comparison, we gloss over the guys above them on the list (there are 6 seasons better than Maris' 61 - all of them during the stretch in which Clemens was a dominant pitcher), because the steroid era HR's don't count. But, to every pitcher during that era, those earned runs had the same impact on their stats as they did before and after the steroid era. Are steroids really an unfair advantage when all of the best hitters you are facing have the exact same advantage? If it was determined that every race Usain Bolt ran in the Olympics was on a 45 degree decline, would he be any less dominant relative to his competition during his reign?

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Since every thread need pics here is my by far favorite possession. I bought this wrong back pair directly from Score back in the day. To keep and own I wouldn't trade them for any other card(s) in the hobby.

My god those are cool! I love that set too, great design.