Roger Clemens - Where does he rank?

[Smarti5051]

Originally Posted by G1911

I have a hard time seeing that the best answer is to write off and ignore steroid use. It’s unfair to those who didn’t cheat for almost half their career, like Maddux.

I always love when people cite Maddux or Jeter as players that did it "right" and never used steroids. How does any know this to be true? For all anyone knows, Maddux used steroids through the minor leagues and majors, but just didn't bulk up like Bonds. Maddux and others were not tested during their careers, and the only difference between Clemens being guilty of steroids and Maddux being clean is: (1) Maddux did not have a random trainer accuse him of using steroids - and profiting from the accusations; and (2) Clemens had a late career surge that fits well into a steroid narrative.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

I always love when people cite Maddux or Jeter as players that did it "right" and never used steroids. How does any know this to be true? For all anyone knows, Maddux used steroids through the minor leagues and majors, but just didn't bulk up like Bonds. Maddux and others were not tested during their careers, and the only difference between Clemens being guilty of steroids and Maddux being clean is: (1) Maddux did not have a random trainer accuse him of using steroids - and profiting from the accusations; and (2) Clemens had a late career surge that fits well into a steroid narrative.

I agree with the rules of logic and, secondarily, the precept that one is innocent unless there is evidence to the contrary. One can not prove a negative, it is of course impossible to prove that somebody has never done an action during his life.

It was not a "random trainer", it was his personal trainer. As I recall there was also shipping records to his house. The feds even had his DNA on a needle with anabolic steroid still on it as well (https://www.forbes.com/sites/christi...h=de3e9657baa2).

Is your contention that steroids don't matter or that Clemens has been framed? Or both?

[rats60]

There are 84 pitchers in the Hall of Fame, so probably around 90th.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I can't recall now was there evidence he juiced other than what was presented to the federal grand jury that found him not guilty of lying to Congress?

[gonefishin]

Heck, maybe Clemens, Bonds, Sosa, Camaniti, Gonzalez, Piazza, McGwire, Sosa, Pudge, Sheffield, Manny, Palmeiro, ARod, and let's not forget Jose Conseco, etc. etc. can all (or their NOK) get reparations from MLB at some point in time because of the damage to their image and earning potential that was damaged for their alleged use of steroids. Isn't that what it's all about - money? Wasn't that how it all started - making money by selling a book "Juiced: Wild Times, Rampant Roids, Smash Hits, and How Baseball Got Big"?

Is it about recognition by honorably performing at a sustained high level over a career - or - about making money after baseball by marketing your notoriety as a player?

Who knows. I don't have a vote. I do have an opinion. My opinion really has no impact on any player, former or current. My opinion is, if they used an illegal substance to enhance their play, they have no place in the Hall of Fame. Only the player knows for certain. The rest of us can only come to a personal decision based upon what information we obtain.

In 2012 Roger Clemens was found "not guilty" at his second trial for six felony counts of perjury, false statements, and lying to Congress (the first trial was declared a mistrial). So, he is not guilty of those federal offenses.

His achievements are amazing, no doubt about that. Sometimes, just sometimes, it's about a little more than an individual's performance on the field.

[profholt82]

How can anyone rate a cheater like him among the all-time greats of the game?

[Smarti5051]

Originally Posted by profholt82

How can anyone rate a cheater like him among the all-time greats of the game?

So, if one player "cheats" he is disqualified from consideration as a GOAT? OK, if that is the framework for discussion, then Babe Ruth also cannot be considered, right? He was caught using a corked bat in 1923 (and presumably used one more than once). Willie Mays frequently used amphetamines. Foreign substances on balls used by several pitchers have been an accepted cat-and-mouse game for decades with little stigma attached to pitchers that used them.

It sure feels like we are drawing some pretty wavy lines on what is acceptable and unacceptable "cheating" for players on field conduct. I can't help but also notice those lines are heavily influenced by how the media feels those players treated them. Bonds and Clemens were not fun interviews and surly, so the media decided to make steroids the line that cannot be crossed. And, many players not friendly to the media were heavily vetted for a connection to steroids for #cancelling.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Something tells me if David Ortiz had been a surly bastard, we'd be looking at a very different outcome. And how sure are we Bagwell and Piazza didn't use? I-rod?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Something tells me if David Ortiz had been a surly bastard, we'd be looking at a very different outcome. And how sure are we Bagwell and Piazza didn't use? I-rod?

Yes. I’m fine with punishing them for breaking the rule or forgiving it and letting them in, but this current state where Ortiz is forgiven and his use memory holed while Clemens is cancelled and Bonds got straight blackballed out of baseball is absurd.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Something tells me if David Ortiz had been a surly bastard, we'd be looking at a very different outcome. And how sure are we Bagwell and Piazza didn't use? I-rod?

I want to say I heard something about Bagwell, maybe?

Piazza and I-Rod? That's the first I'm hearing of these accusations and I don't buy them for a minute.

I listened to Piazza's book and he is open about how much privilege he grew up with resulting in him having a batting cage at his house for god sake. He was destined to be a great hitter. He would max out the most difficult grip trainers and just do that all day, his wrists and grip were insane.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

I always love when people cite Maddux or Jeter as players that did it "right" and never used steroids. How does any know this to be true? For all anyone knows, Maddux used steroids through the minor leagues and majors, but just didn't bulk up like Bonds. Maddux and others were not tested during their careers, and the only difference between Clemens being guilty of steroids and Maddux being clean is: (1) Maddux did not have a random trainer accuse him of using steroids - and profiting from the accusations; and (2) Clemens had a late career surge that fits well into a steroid narrative.

In a nutshell the problem with the whole PED era and the judgments people make. Randy Johnson won nearly all his games after 30, as an aside. Phil Niekro. Spahn.