So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Except Kaline and Clemente's Age 37 seasons (Clemente's last) were remarkably similar so why would one assume Clemente was going to age better than Kaline?

Or to put it better..take away Kaline's last 2 years then....

Other than Avg...what does Clemente hold over him?

HR
RBI
SB

all heavly favor Kaline

[packs]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

Or to put it better..take away Kaline's last 2 years then....

Other than Avg...what does Clemente hold over him?

HR
RBI
SB

all heavly favor Kaline

I think it's already well established that Clemente did age better than Kaline. I don't look at his final seasons and see a star in decline, whereas it seems like Kaline had been diminishing since 1968.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by packs

I think it's already well established that Clemente did age better than Kaline. I don't look at his final seasons and see a star in decline, whereas it seems like Kaline had been diminishing since 1968.

Again...

This is like arguing and disclaiming Bonds..Clemens...etc.

Ifs...buts...maybes....

Taking their careers...as a whole...The stats IMO heavily favor Kaline

You can point to Clemente's avg...and more..triples?

I personally would take the:

200 more Runs
650 more Walks
275 more RBIs
160 more HRs
50 more SBs

Even for all of you wanting to add on 2-3 more hypothetical years ...Clemente still at best leads in Hits/Avg

I still take the RBI/HR/Walks and a guy that hit for avg...vs a guy that pretty much just hit for avg.

[G1911]

Kaline had 144 and 149 OPS+'s at ages 36 and 37, Clemente 143 and 138. Kaline was not declining at this time. This is simply untrue. He was league average at age 38 and 39, before retiring.

Kaline was a star starting in 1955, at age 20 (he got MVP votes at age 19, but he did not deserve them). Clemente's breakout was 1960, at age 25. Before 1960 his bat was below league average, 6% over in 1956 when he hit .311 with no power and walked 13 times in 147 games, but below every other year. Like Kaline, Clemente blame a regular at a young age (19 for Kaline, 20 for Clemente) but he did not perform for some time. Clemente was a star player for 13 years, Kaline 18. It is not likely Clemente was going to age so well to turn this into an advantage for him.

If we are going to give Clemente credit for fantasy years that did not happen on the backend, we should give credit to Kaline for real, actual years on the front end.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by G1911

Kaline had 144 and 149 OPS+'s at ages 36 and 37, Clemente 143 and 138. Kaline was not declining at this time. This is simply untrue. He was league average at age 38 and 39, before retiring.

Kaline was a star starting in 1955, at age 20 (he got MVP votes at age 19, but he did not deserve them). Clemente's breakout was 1960, at age 25. Before 1960 his bat was below league average, 6% over in 1956 when he hit .311 with no power and walked 13 times in 147 games, but below every other year. Like Kaline, Clemente blame a regular at a young age (19 for Kaline, 20 for Clemente) but he did not perform for some time. Clemente was a star player for 13 years, Kaline 18. It is not likely Clemente was going to age so well to turn this into an advantage for him.

If we are going to give Clemente credit for fantasy years that did not happen on the backend, we should give credit to Kaline for real, actual years on the front end.

Precisely...If you are loooking at total numbers...not very close....if you are looking at longer/more productive peak years...again...not very close...if you want fantasy age 38-40 years...well bring your crystal ball

[cgjackson222]

The comparison between Kaline and Clemente in their later years is not an apples to apples comparison.

Kaline was playing a lot 1st Base from 1968 onward. While he was still primarily a right fielder, he played a total of 135 games at 1st Base between 1968 and 1973. In his final year, in 1974, he ONLY played DH.

When you play 1B or DH, you need to hit quite well to be league average.

Kaline hit average for a right fielder, but below average for a 1st baseman or DH.

So, Clemente was hitting average for a Right Fielder, and still a premier fielder.
Therefore, he was more valuable to his team than Kaline towards the end of his career.

[ClementeFanOh]

jhcollins- nope, wrong. I don't care that someone disagree, I care when
people aren't savvy enough TO STAY ON POINT. Nice try though! Creating a
thread with wonks like you in mind! Trent King

[packs]

This is about where they were in their careers when they stopped being contemporaries after Clemente’s death. I don’t think Kaline can be considered an elite player from 1968 to 1972 whereas I look at what Clemente was doing and see an elite player still at the top of his game.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

This is about where they were in their careers when they stopped being contemporaries after Clemente’s death. I don’t think Kaline can be considered an elite player from 1968 to 1972 whereas I look at what Clemente was doing and see an elite player still at the top of his game.

Yes. I am aware. That's why I compared them at the same age.

In 1968 Kaline posted a 146 OPS+
in 1969, 116
In 1970, 127
In 1971, 144
In 1972, 149

He was one of the best hitters in baseball three of those five years and well over the league the other 2. This is not declining.

[packs]

Those OPS+ numbers are nice and do jump out at you but he played 102 games in 1968 and 106 games in 1972. His counting stars aren’t great in those years though he did continue to walk like a beast.

I just don’t think you could call him elite. But when I look at Clemente in the same time period I see the same player he was in his prime.

That’s all I’m trying to say.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Those OPS+ numbers are nice and do jump out at you but he played 102 games in 1968 and 106 games in 1972. His counting stars aren’t great in those years though he did continue to walk like a beast.

I just don’t think you could call him elite. But when I look at Clemente in the same time period I see the same player he was in his prime.

That’s all I’m trying to say.

In 1970, Clemente played only 108 games. In 1972, he played 102.

Games Played, 1968-1972
Kaline: 603
Clemente: 612

I am failing to see the difference or why Kaline's 2 injury years should prevent him from "elite", while Clemente is not given the same treatment for the exact same thing.

My only strong opinion is that they should be held to the same standard.