Hey, pennant guys

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

This Bills is Keezer. It's stamped on the back. I initially thought it was 1940s AAFC Bills, but it seems logical now that this is an AFL Buffalo Bills pennant.

Right on! I knew you'd have some answers for us from the football side of the house.

Is this Bills pennant full size? Marc's 1964 catalogue suggests that Keezer's/American Knitwear's offering was limited solely to 5" x 12" minis. (No mention of any other sizes.)

[bocca001]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Right on! I knew you'd have some answers for us from the football side of the house.

Is this Bills pennant full size? Marc's 1964 catalogue suggests that Keezer's/American Knitwear's offering was limited solely to 5" x 12" minis. (No mention of any other sizes.)

The Oilers I have above is full size, and identical in design to the 5 x 12. As rare as the minis are, the full size ones seem even more rare. I think I've seen the Oilers and the Packers. Fballguy has a pic of a packers fan with one at a Super Bowl. And I think Mark has/had the Steelers. That's all I've seen.

I'd think that the Bills above is older, and not part of the same series. It does not match style wise.

Edited: So, I just found a copy of the Bills mini pennant on Worthpoint. See below. And it has an American Knitwear stamp. So, I guess that answers that for the mini pennants (and their large counterparts). Not sure about Fballguy's Bills pennant.

[murphusa]

The. Choices for a World Series Pennant in Philly are weak

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by murphusa

The. Choices for a World Series Pennant in Philly are weak

How much do those depreciate once you take them off the rack? 100%?

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Right on! I knew you'd have some answers for us from the football side of the house.

Is this Bills pennant full size? Marc's 1964 catalogue suggests that Keezer's/American Knitwear's offering was limited solely to 5" x 12" minis. (No mention of any other sizes.)

Yes...Full size. I can send exact measurements and a pic of the stamp when I get home this weekend. I didn't compare the stamp to baseball Keezers I have, but at first glance it looks just like the baseball stamp. Not sure if the stamp evolved over the years.

Marc...Your large Oilers and my Bills have the same stiff non-"felt" tassels.

[bocca001]

That strange tassel material (and sometimes spines) seems to suggest that they came from the same era, probably early 1960s.

Gary- the baseball Keezer ones I have been posting (e.g., White Sox) are full size.

[bocca001]

These are all stamped American Knitwear. All mini pennants.

[Domer05]

Wow, nice find Marc. Who knew all you had to do was search for "American Knitwear" (rather than Keezer) pennants?

[Domer05]

That Pirate mini is different from the normal, full size Pirate we always associated with Keezer. Come to think of it, it seems awfully consistent with Marc's SF Giants pennant, bearing no mark, but believed to be by Keezer/American Knitwear.

Both are 5" x 12".

Doesn't this suggest there's a whole set of baseball 5" x 12" minis by Keezer/American Knitwear with new artwork, not seen on older full size Keezers?

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by Domer05

That Pirate mini is different from the normal, full size Pirate we always associated with Keezer. Come to think of it, it seems awfully consistent with Marc's SF Giants pennant, bearing no mark, but believed to be by Keezer/American Knitwear.

Both are 5" x 12".

Doesn't this suggest there's a whole set of baseball 5" x 12" minis by Keezer/American Knitwear with new artwork, not seen on older full size Keezers?

Those two absolutely could be from the same set!

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by bocca001

These are all stamped American Knitwear. All mini pennants.

Referring back to the conversation around Post #6806

I recently picked up this mini New York Yankees American Knitwear pennant. It is very similar to the full-sized Keezer pennant I'm selling on eBay. I don't know where this conversation left off, but I wanted to provide these contributions.

[bocca001]

Thanks, Erik. Crossed bats seem to be a common theme in this series.

About Worton, I look forward to hearing more from Kyle and others. It is interesting that the ad talks about price per 100. Makes it seem like high volume. Based on what's available on worthpoint, seems like the Worton and Epstein labels are both pretty rare (maybe 10 examples of each). But Trench labels are also pretty rare. So how to tell the difference between a maker and a down the line seller?

[ooo-ribay]

With no real reasoning, I think Worton was a maker.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by bocca001

About Worton, I look forward to hearing more from Kyle and others. [...] So how to tell the difference between a maker and a down the line seller?

My opinion: Worton was just a retailer; and these labels were merely his retailer's mark. From the limited universe of Worton-marked pennants I know of, he peddled a mixture of both Trench and AMCO pennants. That alone tells me he couldn't have made them all.

Additionally, unlike Epstein, there's no trade catalogue or phone directory identifying Worton as a manufacturer of pennants. Nothing. If they made all of these pennants, they were a significant manufacturer, and there should be some directory classifying them as a pennant maker.

Finally, as Greg pointed out, look at their location: across the street from old Yankee Stadium. Where there was plenty of foot traffic containing fans headed into the ballpark for baseball and football games. In other words, the ideal spot for a brick and mortar souvenir shop. In contrast, most of the 20th century NYC-based pennant makers, including Epstein, were clustered together in the Garment District, down by lower Manhattan. Nowhere near their end-users....

For me, the 1948 advertisement for football supplies seals the deal. Felt pennants were just one of several different novelty items they offered ... along with some complementary goods, e.g., pennant canes and charms; but also ... rabbits feet. That tells me they were a retail store, and to stay in business year round, they had to offer more than just felt pennants to their retail customers.

I've never heard of a single manufacturer making both pennants and rabbits feet, have you?

So, for me, they were just a retailer that sourced their felt pennants from a variety of makers over the years. Because they purchased so many each year, these makers rewarded them by sewing Worton's name on their pennants. It's really not too different from a concessionaire's mark. Not only were Trench (and others) known for doing this, it would explain why there's plenty more of these same pennants with no label on them, i.e., because they were purchased from another retail source.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Thanks, Erik. Crossed bats seem to be a common theme in this series.

About Worton, I look forward to hearing more from Kyle and others. It is interesting that the ad talks about price per 100. Makes it seem like high volume. Based on what's available on worthpoint, seems like the Worton and Epstein labels are both pretty rare (maybe 10 examples of each). But Trench labels are also pretty rare. So how to tell the difference between a maker and a down the line seller?

Marc, is it correct that this pennant here was advertised as having the Worton label? Because I am about 99.9% confident that this is a WGN production. If Worton slapped a tag on it then I think we have an answer.