Bob Feller Career

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I've seen this estimate.

The statisticians tell us that Williams, who was obsessed with personal achievements, would have compiled a .342 career average, 3,452 hits, 2,380 RBI and 663 home runs had he played without war-time interruption.

I think that's still second to Ruth -- God would have finished second to Ruth -- but obviously remarkable.

Ruth's numbers will forever wow me, and what's even more absurd is that we were arguably robbed of an even better career if he started out playing a position instead of pitching.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Seven

Ruth's numbers will forever wow me, and what's even more absurd is that we were arguably robbed of an even better career if he started out playing a position instead of pitching.

If there is any statistical study that has ever been done showing anyone but Ruth as #1, I have never seen or heard of it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Starting his age 24 season, Ruth had ..... wait for it .... 20 HR.

[Mozzie22]

Bob Feller faced Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio and Mickey Mantle. I asked him once at a card show who he disliked facing the most of the three. He said Dimaggio had the best numbers against him, Mantle wasn't worrisome and Gehrig "scared the hell out of me!" Couldn't help but laugh when he said that.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Seven

Ruth's numbers will forever wow me, and what's even more absurd is that we were arguably robbed of an even better career if he started out playing a position instead of pitching.

If he'd started out as a position player, they probably would have made him change into the small ball hitter that everyone else was at the time. So if the focus hadn't been on his pitching at first instead, he may never have gotten the chance to become "the Babe".

[Touch'EmAll]

Cruising this thread seeing all time rankings mentioned 10-15th, 25th, 29th, 34th, 51st. Without analyzing the numbers heavily, I would rank him higher than most, like top 10-12.

The years he missed in his prime are mega huge, more so for a pitcher than a hitter. Instead of trying to add in for what he missed, how about a different angle. Take several top 15 pitchers of all time, now subtract the years Feller missed from their records and see where that leaves them for career stats.

From the Society for American Baseball Research: "Lost almost 4 full seasons in his prime. Both Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio called him the best pitcher they ever faced. He was the most dominant pitcher of his era."

I am now thinking top 10 for Feller. But then again, I love the sheer awe of elite power pitchers - no other players I would rather see with my own time and money.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Cruising this thread seeing all time rankings mentioned 10-15th, 25th, 29th, 34th, 51st. Without analyzing the numbers heavily, I would rank him higher than most, like top 10-12.

The years he missed in his prime are mega huge, more so for a pitcher than a hitter. Instead of trying to add in for what he missed, how about a different angle. Take several top 15 pitchers of all time, now subtract the years Feller missed from their records and see where that leaves them for career stats.

Out of interest, where do you rank Ryan?

[Touch'EmAll]

higher than most on net54

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill James if memory serves had Feller 12 (counting Negro Leagues) and Ryan 24th. I would think most would have them closer together.

[Touch'EmAll]

I dug out my old Bill James Historical Abstract, printed in 1988. Yes, I know its not the most current.

Of the pitchers on his "100 Greatest Players of this Century", he has Feller #8 Career Value behind (in order): Grove, Spahn, W. Johnson, Cy Young, Matty, Seaver, G.C. Alexander, then Bob Feller.

Does not appear Bill James included what may have been for Fellers Military years missed.

Since 1988, I acknowledge pitchers such as Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro would have an impact on rankings.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

I dug out my old Bill James Historical Abstract, printed in 1988. Yes, I know its not the most current.

Of the pitchers on his "100 Greatest Players of this Century", he has Feller #8 Career Value behind (in order): Grove, Spahn, W. Johnson, Cy Young, Matty, Seaver, G.C. Alexander, then Bob Feller.

Does not appear Bill James included what may have been for Fellers Military years missed.

Since 1988, I acknowledge pitchers such as Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro would have an impact on rankings.

I am thinking of the 2003 volume. He included Paige in that one. I think he had Gibson ahead of Feller, and I forget who else. Probably by that time Clemens.

[ramram]

I've got this 1935 Iowa State Amateur Baseball Tournament scorebook featuring 16 year old Bob Feller. This was the tournament at which Feller was "found" by superscout Cy Slapnicka. He was signed shortly thereafter. The scorebook was the official scorer's book kept by the Iowa Amateur Athletic Association's State Chairman Joe Campbell. Feller's team of farm boys ended up winning the tournament against many of the well sponsored city boys. Feller was probably 8 - 10 years younger than most of the participants.

In the tournament, Feller pitched 27 1/3 innings, had 49 strikeouts and gave up 14 hits, 10 walks, 4 runs (1 earned run). The only earned run was on a home run. In the last two days of the tournament, Feller pitched both complete games and likely threw over 300 pitches!

Feller Scorebook 3.jpg

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ramram

I've got this 1935 Iowa State Amateur Baseball Tournament scorebook featuring 16 year old Bob Feller. This was the tournament at which Feller was "found" by superscout Cy Slapnicka. He was signed shortly thereafter.

And guess who was managing Cleveland when they signed him, in one of the odd twists of their careers?

[G1911]

I don't see how one we can give credit for events which did not happen, only those which did. I can't get him close to the top 10 because I don't see how we can use seasons that did not happen to move him up, or deduct seasons that did actually happen from others.

The best pitcher may be some guy who never made it into the majors. Maybe it was some farm kid in 1877 who chose to become a grocer instead. Maybe it was some guy who never left the sandlots. When we are ranking and talking about the best, what we are really saying and doing is judging the best careers in MLB, because that's the highest level of competition there has been and presents a reasonable dataset, counting those we can reasonably evaluate by some measure beyond the emotional. Could Feller have been a top 10 possible talent? Maybe. Would Feller rank higher if he hadn't missed 4 years? Quite possibly. He might also have suffered a severe injury in 1943 and been out of baseball and a footnote today. One can't really evaluate that which did not happen to give extra points to selected people. I know this is an unpopular and bummer of a view, but I just don't see a way to do it within the confines of reason.

[jingram058]

Bob Feller was no racist, and that's the end of it. "Dr. Jones, it's time to ask yourself what you believe."

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Bob Feller was no racist, and that's the end of it. "Dr. Jones, it's time to ask yourself what you believe."

And if he wasn't, he was way ahead of the rest of the country.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

And if he wasn't, he was way ahead of the rest of the country.

I think it was George F. Will who made the point that while Mays might not have had to endure some of the outright racism Robinson did, he was still the target of a more subtle racism; for example, the press apparently was fond of referring to Mays' childlike enthusiasm for the game. Also, Life Magazine (or maybe Time) apparently created a shitstorm by putting Larraine Day on the cover with one arm around Leo (her husband) and the other around Willie.

One more about Willie and the 50s, there was a hit song by the Treniers about him, it's actually a good song but listening to the lyrics from today's POV is just painful.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I don't see how one we can give credit for events which did not happen, only those which did. I can't get him close to the top 10 because I don't see how we can use seasons that did not happen to move him up, or deduct seasons that did actually happen from others.

The best pitcher may be some guy who never made it into the majors. Maybe it was some farm kid in 1877 who chose to become a grocer instead. Maybe it was some guy who never left the sandlots. When we are ranking and talking about the best, what we are really saying and doing is judging the best careers in MLB, because that's the highest level of competition there has been and presents a reasonable dataset, counting those we can reasonably evaluate by some measure beyond the emotional. Could Feller have been a top 10 possible talent? Maybe. Would Feller rank higher if he hadn't missed 4 years? Quite possibly. He might also have suffered a severe injury in 1943 and been out of baseball and a footnote today. One can't really evaluate that which did not happen to give extra points to selected people. I know this is an unpopular and bummer of a view, but I just don't see a way to do it within the confines of reason.

Yes, but while anything is possible, some outcomes are far more probable than others, no? Don't you think the chances he would have performed at a similar level are much higher than that he would have sustained a career ending injury? I wouldn't go so far as to simply credit anyone with numbers for hypothetical seasons, but I think at some level one can consider the phenomenon in one's assessment.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes, but while anything is possible, some outcomes are far more probable than others, no? Don't you think the chances he would have performed at a similar level are much higher than that he would have sustained a career ending injury? I wouldn't go so far as to simply credit anyone with numbers for hypothetical seasons, but I think at some level one can consider the phenomenon in one's assessment.

Certainly I think it is more likely he would have performed well than not. Pitcher arm's dying is not some weird and unusual thing though; it happens all the time and to the majority of pitchers. Give him an extra thousand innings or so and the odds are not tiny. This, what I think is more likely than another scenario, though, is irrelevant. We do not know what would have happened because we are not omniscient. When we look at the numbers to try to determine who had the best MLB careers (what is almost always actually meant when we say "best"), we can only evaluate actual reality, the things that we know have actually happened or the things that it would be more reasonable to think happened than to think that they did not happen. Any argument placing Feller in the top 10 relies on fanfiction, giving credit for years which did not happen, and assuming the best possible outcome of these fictional events in his favor. If the question is "who are your top 10 MLB pitchers who bad luck and for whom events probably most hurt the career value of?", Feller may be a good candidate.

I like Feller. But I see no reasonable way to give credit for years that did not happen. If I make up fantasy years for one player, I can do it for any of them. By the same logic I can conclude the immensely talented Bobby Bonds is a top 10. If things had just gone differently for X, if X had just done things a little different, if luck had been with X, X could have been the best. If only. It's true for all of us, really. If I'd just done X at Y time, I'd be the big winner at Z. If X had never happened to me and my situation would be different, I'd be #1. But reality doesn't work that way.

[ZiggerZagger]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Cruising this thread seeing all time rankings mentioned 10-15th, 25th, 29th, 34th, 51st. Without analyzing the numbers heavily, I would rank him higher than most, like top 10-12.

The years he missed in his prime are mega huge, more so for a pitcher than a hitter. Instead of trying to add in for what he missed, how about a different angle. Take several top 15 pitchers of all time, now subtract the years Feller missed from their records and see where that leaves them for career stats.

From the Society for American Baseball Research: "Lost almost 4 full seasons in his prime. Both Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio called him the best pitcher they ever faced. He was the most dominant pitcher of his era."

I am now thinking top 10 for Feller. But then again, I love the sheer awe of elite power pitchers - no other players I would rather see with my own time and money.

Huge Feller fan here, ever since meeting him at age 11 outside of the old Cleveland Municipal Stadium. My dad pointed him out and sent me with a ball and pen in his direction.
I didn't realize until after I looked at the signature who he was, and it remains a great childhood memory.

I have him as #11 on my list of greatest pitchers, but personally found it much harder to make that list than the outfield players.

Also, pulled these mocked-up stats from an old Net54 thread that represented the best effort to fill in the blanks for military service in WWII.

My Feller focus is going strong for the last 10 years or so. There are a couple of rare cards that are going to be the end of me trying to complete the Master Set, I'm afraid.
And as Peter said, every thread needs a card -- or more.
|

[Touch'EmAll]

Nice cards, indeed !

[Bigdaddy]

As we sit at our keyboards discussing the 'what ifs' and missed years to to service and their place in the inner circle of baseball greatness, I'd bet that Bob and Ted would tell you that they'd make the same decision again to enlist given the circumstances.

That is what elevates them above just great ballplayers.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

As we sit at our keyboards discussing the 'what ifs' and missed years to to service and their place in the inner circle of baseball greatness, I'd bet that Bob and Ted would tell you that they'd make the same decision again to enlist given the circumstances.

That is what elevates them above just great ballplayers.

+1 on that. Well said.

[Peter_Spaeth]

For 10 points, who did Ted fly half his missions with in Korea?

[jethrod3]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For 10 points, who did Ted fly half his missions with in Korea?

Did he fly that many with John Glenn? That would be my answer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jethrod3

Did he fly that many with John Glenn? That would be my answer.

Yep.

[spec]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For 10 points, who did Ted fly half his missions with in Korea?

Jerry Coleman?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

As we sit at our keyboards discussing the 'what ifs' and missed years to to service and their place in the inner circle of baseball greatness, I'd bet that Bob and Ted would tell you that they'd make the same decision again to enlist given the circumstances.

That is what elevates them above just great ballplayers.

Williams was drafted in January 1942, but appealed to the draft board and got himself reclassified so he wouldn't have to go. It was a public scandal at the time and some sponsors dropped him. He joined the Navy Reserve in May 1942 after the team and Williams saw the writing on the wall. He trained as an aviator and got a commission as a second lieutenant but did not see a combat assignment or deployment. He was released from duty January 1946, but remained on the inactive reserve list. Williams apparently had a deal, or believed he did, where he would never have to actually serve again in exchange for the military being allowed to use his name for recruitment and public relations. He was surprised by his January 1952 call-up for Korea, which was apparently a mistake meant for a different Ted Williams on the list. In Korea he was actively deployed and flew 39 combat missions. No easy assignment.

https://www.historynet.com/ted-williams/

It doesn't seem Williams had any desire to serve, delayed his entry in WWII as long as practicable, and either arranged a deal or thought he had such a deal that he would not in future have to see any real duty either. Once he had to go, he served with courage. This is not a criticism, the entire reason that there was a draft is, of course, that not enough people were willing to sign up and go get shot at. I sure wouldn't. But what he did and what Feller did are very different, and I'm not sure there's any reason in the historical record to think Williams was happy to go and made the choice to do so. Feller was eligible for deferment as well, but instead of using that he enlisted within 48 hours of Pearl Harbor and before it was entirely clear a whole generation was going to be forced under duress to go.

If we assign moral points, Feller gets a lot of 'em.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In an admittedly critical biography, I read that DiMaggio's military service basically consisted of playing ball and entertaining generals.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In an admittedly critical biography, I read that DiMaggio's military service basically consisted of playing ball and entertaining generals.

It seems to be a thing the last ~25 years where biographers are mostly interested in the downsides of their subjects rather than their virtues. I believe this was true for DiMaggio, and a number of the stars who got drafted (or enlisted shortly before they were due to be drafted). Williams 39 combat missions in Korea is nothing to be ashamed of. As I understand it he was a physical fitness instructor in the army, and bitter about having to play ball for them on base teams. Considering his father was treated as an enemy and had his rights removed as a former Italian, needing to get special permission to travel more than 5 miles from his residence, I can't really fault Joltin Joe here at all. I sure wouldn't want my family treated like an enemy by a government forcing me to throw the baseball around for the entertainment and egos of generals.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

It seems to be a thing the last ~25 years where biographers are mostly interested in the downsides of their subjects rather than their virtues. I believe this was true for DiMaggio, and a number of the stars who got drafted (or enlisted shortly before they were due to be drafted). Williams 39 combat missions in Korea is nothing to be ashamed of. As I understand it he was a physical fitness instructor in the army, and bitter about having to play ball for them on base teams. Considering his father was treated as an enemy and had his rights removed as a former Italian, needing to get special permission to travel more than 5 miles from his residence, I can't really fault Joltin Joe here at all. I sure wouldn't want my family treated like an enemy by a government forcing me to throw the baseball around for the entertainment and egos of generals.

Well, you don't like the hagiographic ones either.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well, you don't like the hagiographic ones either.

I feel like there's a middle ground, one that we used to call 'objectivity' and at least pretended to desire

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In an admittedly critical biography, I read that DiMaggio's military service basically consisted of playing ball and entertaining generals.

Not sure that really is so critical, and note in my last post what Feller was quoted as saying in regard to duties he was initially assigned to. It does seem to appear that many famous athletes, movie stars, politicians, and the like at the time WWII broke out, and that eventually entered the service, somehow more often than not always seemed to end up with commissions and non-combat duties behind the front lines. Possibly a calculated decision and move on the part of the military and US government for PR purposes and so as to minimize/eliminate negative publicity and reaction to the war should such well-known people have died on the front lines besides 18 to 20something year-olds no one knew outside their own families?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

As we sit at our keyboards discussing the 'what ifs' and missed years to to service and their place in the inner circle of baseball greatness, I'd bet that Bob and Ted would tell you that they'd make the same decision again to enlist given the circumstances.

That is what elevates them above just great ballplayers.

Uhhhhhh, Feller ENLISTED two days after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, don't believe that was the case for Williams in WWII or the Korean War. Also, Feller could have qualified for deferment and not been subject to the draft and the war due to his father's health and eventual passing from brain cancer in January 1943. Also, Feller initially tried to become a fighter pilot, but failed required hearing tests. And after basic training and then being assigned as a physical education instructor at the Norfolk Naval Base, Feller requested transfer to serve in combat missions because as Feller put it he "wanted to do something besides standing around handing out balls and bats and making ball fields out of coral reefs."

Williams meanwhile was DRAFTED in January of 1942, and initially given a 1-A draft classification. But being his mother's sole means of support, he quickly filed for and received a change in his draft status to a 3-A classification and did not have to enter the service at that time. Williams received a lot of extremely negative public reaction because of this, and as a result Quaker Oats dropped Williams and no longer sponsored him. Eventually on May 22, 1942, Williams joined the Naval Reserve, but remained in the US and playing baseball for all of 1942 for what was to become his first Triple Crown season. He was then called up to active duty in 1943.

And because Williams had chosen the Naval Reserve instead of simply going into active service through the draft back in 1942, he was still technically in the reserves when the Korean War broke out. On January 9, 1952, his name was selected from the inactive reserve list to serve on active duty in the Korean War, for which Williams was livid at his having been recalled.

And as Paul Harvey would say, "Now you know the rest of the story."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Uhhhhhh, Feller ENLISTED two days after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, don't believe that was the case for Williams in WWII or the Korean War. Also, Feller could have qualified for deferment and not been subject to the draft and the war due to his father's health and eventual passing from brain cancer in January 1943. Also, Feller initially tried to become a fighter pilot, but failed required hearing tests. And after basic training and then being assigned as a physical education instructor at the Norfolk Naval Base, Feller requested transfer to serve in combat missions because as Feller put it he "wanted to do something besides standing around handing out balls and bats and making ball fields out of coral reefs."

Williams meanwhile was DRAFTED in January of 1942, and initially given a 1-A draft classification. But being his mother's sole means of support, he quickly filed for and received a change in his draft status to a 3-A classification and did not have to enter the service at that time. Williams received a lot of extremely negative public reaction because of this, and as a result Quaker Oats dropped Williams and no longer sponsored him. Eventually on May 22, 1942, Williams joined the Naval Reserve, but remained in the US and playing baseball for all of 1942 for what was to become his first Triple Crown season. He was then called up to active duty in 1943.

And because Williams had chosen the Naval Reserve instead of simply going into active service through the draft back in 1942, he was still technically in the reserves when the Korean War broke out. On January 9, 1952, his name was selected from the inactive reserve list to serve on active duty in the Korean War, for which Williams was livid at his having been recalled.

And as Paul Harvey would say, "Now you know the rest of the story."

This was all or nearly all pointed out already in post 101.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This was all or nearly all pointed out already in post 101.

I ignore that person, so did not see it!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

I ignore that person, so did not see it!

I see.

[Snowman]

He was pretty dominant. He led they league in strikeouts every year from the age of 19 to 29 except for the years he lost to the war. But he struggled with control, and he also benefited from being in a pitcher's park his entire career (both league park 2 and Cleveland stadium were pitchers parks). He's a legit first ballot HOFer, but he's not in my top 10. Probably not even in my top 20. Maybe 25th or so for me? He was like an earlier version of Nolan Ryan without the longevity.

Here's my 52. Probably my favorite card of his that I own.

[Leon]

Thom McAn

[Angyale]

Photo by Van Oyen