After paying their dues, should hobbyists who committed fraud be allowed back ?

Snowman · #1 11-07-2022, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MailboxBaseball

So are you saying that prior fraudsters/criminals should be allowed to sell on here, but with the condition that they mail the card out first prior to receiving payment?

If you are, then that's not a bad suggestion. I just don't see how it would ever be enforced here unless the person volunteers the information.

I don't know. It would really depend on what they did and what they're trying to sell now, in addition to countless other factors for me.

For example, if Gary Moser wanted to sign up here, I would absolutely be in favor of allowing him to post, but I probably wouldn't want him selling BVG 10 Joe Mantana RCs in the B/S/T section lol. But if Bill Mastro signed up and decided he wanted to help kids complete their low-grade raw vintage sets at kid-friendly prices, I'd be all for it. There are just too many possibilities to say definitively one way or the other what I would do if it were my decision to make. It would be a case by case basis for me.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 11-07-2022, 06:36 PM

Is it only hobby crimes we care about in keeping this community clean? What about embezzlers, financial sector fraudsters, sex offenders, drug offenders, and so on? How far is this exclusion going?

Casey2296 · #3 11-07-2022, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How far is this exclusion going?

Dodger fans...

Aquarian Sports Cards · #4 11-07-2022, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Dodger fans...

you shut your dirty mouth

Leon · #5 11-07-2022, 06:47 PM

Yes, it is only hobby crimes. I am not sure that was perfectly clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Is it only hobby crimes we care about in keeping this community clean? What about embezzlers, financial sector fraudsters, sex offenders, drug offenders, and so on? How far is this exclusion going?

Peter_Spaeth · #6 11-07-2022, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Yes, it is only hobby crimes. I am not sure that was perfectly clear.

I think I'd rather hang and shoot the breeze with a hobby criminal than a sex offender, myself.

Case by case makes much more sense to me, as stated.

lumberjack · #7 11-10-2022, 11:45 AM

Years ago, long before there was such a thing as doctored cards and big money had entered the picture, a dealer wrote a piece in SCD about being approached by an old guy, a walk in, at a regional card show. Seems as if the man had a cigar box filled with Crackerjacks. The author of the piece, who had a table at the show, offered him a buck each for the cards,
which the man, who was totally unaware of what he owned, accepted.

This was in the mid-seventies, but even then Crackerjacks were probably going for $15 a pop.

The author bragged about his big score. Maybe later on he blacktopped the man's 60 foot driveway for ten thousand dollars as a favor.

There was a lot of that in ancient times. Guys would advertise in the sport section of newspapers that they would be at the Holiday Inn on Route 35 all weekend paying cash for gum cards stashed away in a closet....And they would pay pennies on the dollar.

It was all legal. Of course it was morally bankrupt, too.

There is just all kinds of crime.
lumberjack

BobC · #8 11-10-2022, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumberjack

Years ago, long before there was such a thing as doctored cards and big money had entered the picture, a dealer wrote a piece in SCD about being approached by an old guy, a walk in, at a regional card show. Seems as if the man had a cigar box filled with Crackerjacks. The author of the piece, who had a table at the show, offered him a buck each for the cards,
which the man, who was totally unaware of what he owned, accepted.

This was in the mid-seventies, but even then Crackerjacks were probably going for $15 a pop.

The author bragged about his big score. Maybe later on he blacktopped the man's 60 foot driveway for ten thousand dollars as a favor.

There was a lot of that in ancient times. Guys would advertise in the sport section of newspapers that they would be at the Holiday Inn on Route 35 all weekend paying cash for gum cards stashed away in a closet....And they would pay pennies on the dollar.

It was all legal. Of course it was morally bankrupt, too.

There is just all kinds of crime.
lumberjack

So, if you were at a show or flea market and saw someone selling a card you wanted for half of what you believed it was worth, and you bought it, you'd automatically pay him/her double the asking price???

bnorth · #9 11-10-2022, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

So, if you were at a show or flea market and saw someone selling a card you wanted for half of what you believed it was worth, and you bought it, you'd automatically pay him/her double the asking price???

I would think it varies greatly by each situation and money is made buying cards not selling when a dealer. At least in my experiance.

On the other side I bought a card from a member that he had listed for months on here, I turned around and sold it for close to 10 times what I paid. I sent the guy I bought it from a nice cash gift.

On another occasion I bought a complete 1959 Fleer Ted Williams set from a member. When it arrived it was in way better condition than what I was looking for. He said he sold it cheap because he really needed the money. Shortly after his computer died so I bought him a new one.

So it can go both ways.

Gorditadogg · #10 11-10-2022, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

So, if you were at a show or flea market and saw someone selling a card you wanted for half of what you believed it was worth, and you bought it, you'd automatically pay him/her double the asking price???

Making a living by taking advantage of ignorant people is not an honorable career.

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Mozzie22 · #11 11-07-2022, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't know. It would really depend on what they did and what they're trying to sell now, in addition to countless other factors for me.

For example, if Gary Moser wanted to sign up here, I would absolutely be in favor of allowing him to post, but I probably wouldn't want him selling BVG 10 Joe Mantana RCs in the B/S/T section lol. But if Bill Mastro signed up and decided he wanted to help kids complete their low-grade raw vintage sets at kid-friendly prices, I'd be all for it. There are just too many possibilities to say definitively one way or the other what I would do if it were my decision to make. It would be a case by case basis for me.

Wow!

Btw, thanks for that Bill Mastro hypothetical! I think everyone needs a good laugh from time to time. UNBELIEVABLE...and sad.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 11-07-2022, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mozzie22

Wow!

Btw, thanks for that Bill Mastro hypothetical! I think everyone needs a good laugh from time to time. UNBELIEVABLE...and sad.

Gary posted here in the past. The forum survived.

bnorth · #13 11-07-2022, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Gary posted here in the past. The forum survived.

There have been a few con artists on here over the years. One of my favorites was the guy resealing all the cello packs with star players showing. He was also showing how to spot resealed cello packs. LOL

Peter_Spaeth · #14 11-07-2022, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

There have been a few con artists on here over the years. One of my favorites was the guy resealing all the cello packs with star players showing. He was also showing how to spot resealed cello packs. LOL

Doug Allen. John Rogers.

G1911 · #15 11-07-2022, 07:18 PM

It would survive some more scammers and fraudsters, but I still fail to see any reasonable argument that letting fraudsters who have said sorry in could possibly produce any positive benefit. Maybe some more clicks from the drama?

Hobby fraud seems more relevant to the context of a hobby forum than unrelated criminal actions.

Peter_Spaeth · #16 11-07-2022, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

It would survive some more scammers and fraudsters, but I still fail to see any reasonable argument that letting fraudsters who have said sorry in could possibly produce any positive benefit. Maybe some more clicks from the drama?

Hobby fraud seems more relevant to the context of a hobby forum than unrelated criminal actions.

Many bad guys also have a wealth of knowledge, so sure they could make positive contributions.

And don't underestimate entertainment value, the threads about which way the market is headed and favorite T206s can get old.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #17 11-10-2022, 09:42 AM

Reminds me of the Groucho quoto "I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member"

Snowman · #18 11-08-2022, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mozzie22

Wow!

Btw, thanks for that Bill Mastro hypothetical! I think everyone needs a good laugh from time to time. UNBELIEVABLE...and sad.

I didn't say I was a fan of Moser or Mastro. But I value learning opportunities, and if you think these two guys don't have more hobby knowledge than half the members on this board combined, you're nuts. Imagine if we could catch a drunken Gary Moser and he just started spilling the beans about all the different cards out there that are trimmed. Or which sets have 90% of the cards trimmed from, or who certain PSA insiders were at certain times that were grading his cards, or who knows what else. The point is, I'd be interested to hear what either of those guys has to say regardless of whether or not I like them.

EddieP · #19 11-08-2022, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

I didn't say I was a fan of Moser or Mastro. But I value learning opportunities, and if you think these two guys don't have more hobby knowledge than half the members on this board combined, you're nuts. Imagine if we could catch a drunken Gary Moser and he just started spilling the beans about all the different cards out there that are trimmed. Or which sets have 90% of the cards trimmed from, or who certain PSA insiders were at certain times that were grading his cards, or who knows what else. The point is, I'd be interested to hear what either of those guys has to say regardless of whether or not I like them.

Agree 100%.

EddieP · #20 11-08-2022, 08:01 AM

Not sure if this is related by there’s a post of a member/Board Member who just got banned. I’m not sure what the criteria are to be a Board Member but I assume it means he is very knowledgeable. Regardless, if this recent post is related then I agree with the ban.

Peter_Spaeth · #21 11-08-2022, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

I didn't say I was a fan of Moser or Mastro. But I value learning opportunities, and if you think these two guys don't have more hobby knowledge than half the members on this board combined, you're nuts. Imagine if we could catch a drunken Gary Moser and he just started spilling the beans about all the different cards out there that are trimmed. Or which sets have 90% of the cards trimmed from, or who certain PSA insiders were at certain times that were grading his cards, or who knows what else. The point is, I'd be interested to hear what either of those guys has to say regardless of whether or not I like them.

How great would it be to hear Bill talk about the Wagner.

steve B · #22 11-09-2022, 10:39 AM

I'm with the "it depends" group.

How big of a hobby crime, and what?
And oddly I agree with Snowman, who decides what a hobby crime is?
I'm against cutting up the surviving strip card strips. and think of it as a sort of hobby crime. Others only see the money and say "cut away!" I wouldn't want someone banned if their crime was a fairly minor one.

Someone like Mastro had to have a decent amount of knowledge and connections to do what he did. And yes, that would be a tough call whether the knowledge outweighed the crimes.

I also really doubt that if we go the route of absolutes anyone would still be here.

parkplace33 · #23 11-09-2022, 11:41 AM

Was Mastro ever a part of Net54?

clamendo · #24 11-09-2022, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Was Mastro ever a part of Net54?

Leon- Do a �mashup� using their eBay ID and display their Feedback rating in parenthesis next to their userid on this forum. I�ll bet 90%+ are on eBay.

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Leon · #25 11-09-2022, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Was Mastro ever a part of Net54?

I don't think so, though I know he has read, or reads, it.

And to Steve right above, I think if you went to jail for something you did in the hobby, that is my definition of a hobby crime. If you are well known, with evidence, as someone who commits fraud in the hobby, that would probably be the same. Think Moser, Desmond etc...
On top of that, if anyone knows any member that has completely reneged in an auction, I would appreciate a PM (kept anonymous) to follow up on.

I appreciate a lot of members saying leave it up to me, but that was what I was hoping not to do

. It's been a good discussion so far and I am not surprised by the results. It's not a black and white subject.

.

Peter_Spaeth · #26 11-09-2022, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Was Mastro ever a part of Net54?

Doug Allen sure was.

irishdenny · #27 11-12-2022, 02:50 PM

If They/Them/Day/Dem, etc...

Commit HIERECY...

*Then it is Now Known to be a *Prerequisite to the Crime!

No Need to Ask Anymore!!

They're Not Getin' my Clubhouse!!!

View Poll Results: After paying their dues, should hobbyists who committed fraud be allowed back ?
Yes	67	18.56%
No	257	71.19%
I don't care	37	10.25%
Voters: 361. You may not vote on this poll

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