Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

[RCMcKenzie]

Yeah, the caption looks more normal on your image. It's difficult to say looking at scans. It has a wavy left border.

I was around the boards in 2001. I don't recall this auction, but posters used to talk about his auctions a lot. I wonder if anyone remembers talk of that sale, or still has the catalog.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Yeah, the caption looks more normal on your image. It's difficult to say looking at scans. It has a wavy left border.

I was around the boards in 2001. I don't recall this auction, but posters used to talk about his auctions a lot. I wonder if anyone remembers talk of that sale, or still has the catalog.

You can read the story on that Wagner pages 5,6 & 7 of part 7 it's an interesting story.


https://www.t206resource.com/Article...gner-File.html

[RCMcKenzie]

Thanks for the link to the Bob Lemke Wagner file. Very fun to read.

A few takeaways: It doesn't seem like Bray actually saw the card. Family says grandpa pulled it from a pack. Interesting note about the Sep. 4, 1909 Sporting Life magazine ad depicting Wagner and saying, "now in all 5-cent packages of Sweet Caporal, Piedmont, and Sovereign cigarettes." Also, I wonder if the Trader Speaks Piedmont is a 3rd example sitting in a desk drawer somewhere.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Thanks for the link to the Bob Lemke Wagner file. Very fun to read.

A few takeaways: It doesn't seem like Bray actually saw the card. Family says grandpa pulled it from a pack. Interesting note about the Sep. 4, 1909 Sporting Life magazine ad depicting Wagner and saying, "now in all 5-cent packages of Sweet Caporal, Piedmont, and Sovereign cigarettes." Also, I wonder if the Trader Speaks Piedmont is a 3rd example sitting in a desk drawer somewhere.

They were generic ads on what they planned on printing here's a Hindu ad that has subjects that weren't printed with Hindu's for example Waddell throwing, Nicholls, Lobert, and Dooin weren't printed with Hindu backs, most of them also show the names on top of the cards.

img653.jpg

[Pat R]

I had forgot that there was talk of a ghost on this Wagner on here but the images are gone now. It's an upside down ghost of Doolin.

PD150-3.jpg

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

I would not assume the card is authentic though, and suspect that eventually our hobby will be ruined by correct ink and correct stock reprints.

We already have the correct stock. Making paper is easy. Just take some T206 commons, peel off the faces, and any places with ink, and keep the rest of the paper. Toss it in a blender with some water and make new paper with it. I'm pretty sure this is how the card doctors are rebuilding bad corners to get higher grades at PSA.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

We already have the correct stock. Making paper is easy. Just take some T206 commons, peel off the faces, and any places with ink, and keep the rest of the paper. Toss it in a blender with some water and make new paper with it. I'm pretty sure this is how the card doctors are rebuilding bad corners to get higher grades at PSA.

I do think the stock is the easiest part here. However, I am not aware of any evidence that there are correct stock reprints of T206's. As is the common refrain for this thread, I would love to see any actual evidence before subscribing to a belief that a thing is true, as reason dictates.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Snowman

We already have the correct stock. Making paper is easy. Just take some T206 commons, peel off the faces, and any places with ink, and keep the rest of the paper. Toss it in a blender with some water and make new paper with it. I'm pretty sure this is how the card doctors are rebuilding bad corners to get higher grades at PSA.

But they weren't doing it 50-60 years ago. Now if a new Wagner shows up that is in question you could present that argument.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I had forgot that there was talk of a ghost on this Wagner on here but the images are gone now. It's an upside down ghost of Doolin.

Attachment 543300

Whatever the origin, it looks like the Wagner was face up and offset against the face of another card for a long time. Is this humidity and wear, or something that occurred at the printer?

On the Gretsky Wagner, and current reprints, the problem is recreating aging. If you rolled out a BSF style story with 900 Sov 150 Wagners in Gem Mint, I don't know if people would buy it.

I think if the Piedmont Wagners are not original, they were made too long ago to be nefarious reprints.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Whatever the origin, it looks like the Wagner was face up and offset against the face of another card for a long time. Is this humidity and wear, or something that occurred at the printer?

On the Gretsky Wagner, and current reprints, the problem is recreating aging. If you rolled out a BSF style story with 900 Sov 150 Wagners in Gem Mint, I don't know if people would buy it.

I think if the Piedmont Wagners are not original, they were made too long ago to be nefarious reprints.

Definitely something that occurred at the printers and I think original but not from a regular production sheet.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Whatever the origin, it looks like the Wagner was face up and offset against the face of another card for a long time. Is this humidity and wear, or something that occurred at the printer?

On the Gretsky Wagner, and current reprints, the problem is recreating aging. If you rolled out a BSF style story with 900 Sov 150 Wagners in Gem Mint, I don't know if people would buy it.

I think if the Piedmont Wagners are not original, they were made too long ago to be nefarious reprints.

It's not reversed, so not an offset.

Dual offsets may be possible, but are so rare I've only ever seen one item that I believe is a double offset. (I own it, and the only other possibility is that it's an item printed on the wrong side of the stock in a totally different alignment than the other presumed unique example. To me it's a coin toss, so I won't call it either.

Water absolutely will not create an offset on a T206. I tried, under fairly extreme circumstances and it did absolutely nothing towards an offset.