1968 Topps Milton Bradley help

[ALR-bishop]

So, are DPs with differences variations or just two versions of a card ?

Are all of the 68 baseball MB cards variations, or just a second set or separate subset of the 68 Topps set ?

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

So, are DPs with differences variations or just two versions of a card ?

Are all of the 68 baseball MB cards variations, or just a second set or separate subset of the 68 Topps set ?

Good question. In regard to the MB set, learning from Carlton's research on this set, I count the Marichal checklists as two different cards as they appear in their own respective spot on the sheet. IMO, the MB set would not be complete w/o copies of both. Coincidentally, the same two versions of this Marichal card appear in the 1968 Topps set. Each version appears on a separate sheet, thus like most all Topps checklists by series, I have always considered them variations as I would only need one in my set to consider it complete. Either way, I think it is up to each collector to decide this question.

Until I met Carlton (pre net54), I considered MB cards variations. After he explained the nuances of this set to me, the MB set is most certainly it's own set independent of all other sets(IE. not a subset ).

[ALR-bishop]

I tend to agree with you Larry on both counts.

But if one adopts the limited definition of a variation as a card intentionally changed by the manufacturer are double prints in a set, like the 52 Mantle, Thompson and Robinson variations ( or the many checklist DPs of the 60s and 70s) ? The differences were not specifically intentional but did result from intentional decisions in the set up of the sheet.

Are the 62 greenies that did not involve pose differences variations ?

How about the 82 Blackless "set " They are just unintentional print defects but ended up in packs. Variations ? SCD listed them as a separate set

I tend to view DP differences as variations. The greenies also. But I tend to view the 82 Blackless as print defects, although clearly they are recognized by the hobby as either variations or a separate subset of the 82 Topps.

Also agree that each collector should make their own call

[G1911]

The Marichal checklist was printed in double quantity, with 2 spots on the sheet. One with each variation of it. Just as the 311 Mantle is a DP with a variation, so too is the MB checklist. That it has a variation does not make it not a double print. A DP with a variation has never normally been considered an entirely new card, just a card that has a variation. The card is a double print.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by G1911

The Marichal checklist was printed in double quantity, with 2 spots on the sheet. One with each variation of it. Just as the 311 Mantle is a DP with a variation, so too is the MB checklist. That it has a variation does not make it not a double print. A DP with a variation has never normally been considered an entirely new card, just a card that has a variation. The card is a double print.

I would agree with your opinion on DPs with regular issued Topps sets, however, the MB set is anything but a regular issued Topps set. Thus, each of these checklists, as they are easily distinguishable, are one part of the 77 card baseball portion of this set as well as one part each of the overall 132 unique cards for this set. With cards from both the 1968 Topps 1st and 2nd series represented on the MB sheet, each of these checklists were taken from their respective series and were (for whatever reason EDA see my next post) both included in one of the 77 spots for baseball cards on the MB sheet. If both checklists appearing on the MB sheet were from the same series, then I would agree that this card would indeed be a DP.

[ALR-bishop]

I guess I find myself more in Greg's camp on this. Like the 52 Mantle, Thompson and Robinson the CL was printed twice on the same sheet and has differences and hence, to me, are variations. But I need both to have a complete "master" set.

I know Carlton, whose views I highly respect....and yours as well...differ from mine, and that's fine by me

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I guess I find myself more in Greg's camp on this. Like the 52 Mantle, Thompson and Robinson the CL was printed twice on the same sheet and has differences and hence, to me, are variations. But I need both to have a complete "master" set.

I know Carlton, whose views I highly respect....and yours as well...differ from mine, and that's fine by me

I agree with the 52s that the Mantle, Thomson and JRob are true DPs, they had twice the number of cards printed than other cards it their SAME series. And yes, with these DPs, each copy is distinguishable from the other version. Many true DPs are not.

My understanding of what a DP is, it is simply a card that appears twice a frequently as single printed cards from the SAME series.

The fine mesh and wide mesh 68 Marichal checklists (and any Topps checklist from that appeared in multiple series) are not DPs because they appear in separate series. Obviously due to appearing in two separate series, there would be twice as many copies of the checklist cards from the individual player cards from those two series. And yes, a checklist card could be a DP within the same series.

The reason both Marichal checklists (the copy from the 1st series and the one from the 2nd series) appear in the MB set, is that Topps simply used entire rows from both the 1968 Topps 1st and 2nd series sheets and placed these full rows onto the MB 132 card sheet. It just so happened that two rows both started with a Marichal checklist card, one from the 1st series, the other from the 2nd. While it may be a coincidence that these two rows starting with the Marichal CL were chosen, I get the 1st series choice as it has Gibson on the row.

For me, no question that this MB Marichal card would be a DP if Topps used the same row twice on the MB sheet, and in that case all 11 cards on that row would be DPs as compared to the rest of the sheet.

Not to beat on a dead horse though, folks should collect what they want and how they want.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

I would agree with your opinion on DPs with regular issued Topps sets, however, the MB set is anything but a regular issued Topps set. Thus, each of these checklists, as they are easily distinguishable, are one part of the 77 card baseball portion of this set as well as one part each of the overall 132 unique cards for this set. With cards from both the 1968 Topps 1st and 2nd series represented on the MB sheet, each of these checklists were taken from their respective series and were (for whatever reason EDA see my next post) both included in one of the 77 spots for baseball cards on the MB sheet. If both checklists appearing on the MB sheet were from the same series, then I would agree that this card would indeed be a DP.

This would be a very new definition of a unique card that has never before been accepted or used. Almost all Topps checklists have this difference from their DP’ing. We do not consider the base Topps set version to require 2 of the Marichal checklists, that have the exact same variation from being printed in 2 series with a different border design. We consider a base 1968 Topps set to be 598 cards. Variations are not unique cards, they are a variant you need for a master set, but they are not an entirely different card. I have both for my set because I like variations, but the Marichal checklist is a single card with multiple variations, just like every other variation card.

[G1911]

The MB Marichal checklists are from the same series. The MB’s are a single series issue. It is the same picture, the same list, the same card number, in a 1 series release.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by G1911

This would be a very new definition of a unique card that has never before been accepted or used. Almost all Topps checklists have this difference from their DP’ing. We do not consider the base Topps set version to require 2 of the Marichal checklists, that have the exact same variation from being printed in 2 series with a different border design. We consider a base 1968 Topps set to be 598 cards. Variations are not unique cards, they are a variant you need for a master set, but they are not an entirely different card. I have both for my set because I like variations, but the Marichal checklist is a single card with multiple variations, just like every other variation card.

Originally Posted by G1911

The MB Marichal checklists are from the same series. The MB’s are a single series issue. It is the same picture, the same list, the same card number, in a 1 series release.

We are not likely to agree that these two Marichal cards in the MB set are unique cards. With Topps simply using complete rows from previous sheets to create the MB set, in this case the two rows with Marichal cards are from different series, it is tough to call them DPs based on their origin or difference in appearance. As this MB "series" was assembled by using rows from previous issues, it may be best to view each row as being unique in itself. I view the Marichal cards each being a part of a unique row of 11 cards that was taken from either a 1st or 2nd series sheet. So, with this "issue", no row is DP.

My point previously is that this MB set is unique compared to any regular issue set. I agree with DPs from the same series occurring in regular Topps issues. However, if you try to apply the conventional interpretation of a DP to the MB set, you will end up with many DPs.

There are numerous cards that have the same card #s in this single "series", albeit they originate from different issues....so even though many cards have the same card number, but the cards are different on the front/back (like the Marichal checklists), are these also DPs based on the conventional DP definition? .....of course not.

This set is unique and applying traditional Topps DP rules to it doesn't work.

Again, enjoy collecting it however you choose.