Do you utilize a vault service for your cards?

[Peter_Spaeth]

The sales tax thing is mostly BS. UNLESS you never take possession of the card and the vault owner sells it for you, or you leave the card there for a long time probably six months or more, you still owe your home state a use tax when you get the card. Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't make it easier to evade (not avoid) taxes, it does.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The sales tax thing is mostly BS. UNLESS you never take possession of the card and the vault owner sells it for you, or you leave the card there for a long time probably six months or more, you still owe your home state a use tax when you get the card. Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't make it easier to evade (not avoid) taxes, it does.

Right. I’ve heard stories from others that if you try to get your items out of the vault shortly after acquisition, then you have to pay the sales tax anyway. Not sure if there is a time limit for how long you need to leave them in, or if your only hope is to sell directly from the vault, or eventually ship to a state with no sales tax.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by raulus

Right. I’ve heard stories from others that if you try to get your items out of the vault shortly after acquisition, then you have to pay the sales tax anyway. Not sure if there is a time limit for how long you need to leave them in, or if your only hope is to sell directly from the vault, or eventually ship to a state with no sales tax.

True you are Nic. We've had this vault discussion before you started posting on the forum, and I went into it about the idea of removing one's items from a vault after waiting a reasonable period of time to do so. Pointed out to everyone how each state with sales tax has their own specific sales and use tax laws, so you'd want to research the specific state you're in to be sure there isn't something specific in their laws to catch you. Otherwise, I'd said that to my knowledge, no state with a sales and use tax has a specific time deadline or threshold written into their laws stating how long you'd have to own something before moving it into their state and not owe sales/use tax on it.

For example, you live in Oregon, and I'm guessing bought most all your possessions in-state, sans sales tax. So, if you picked up everything and moved to California tomorrow, no California sales tax agent is meeting you at the border or ever going to come looking for you to now collect sales/use tax on all the property you just brought into their state. I used California in my example as it is one of the most onerous states when it comes to state taxes. Also, though no such specific timing deadline/threshold rules for general property or possessions brought into CA exist, their sales/use tax laws do have a very specific timing deadline/threshold for bringing a registered vehicle into CA, of exactly one year. So, if in my example of your family moving to CA from OR, any cars/vehicles you brought with you and re-registered in CA that you had purchased less than one full year earlier, are now subject to CA sales/use tax based on the amount of CA sales tax you would have owed had you originally purchased the vehicle in CA, less whatever sales tax you actually did pay to whatever other state you did buy the vehicle in. But own that car/vehicle for 365 or more days prior to the move to CA, and there is no sales/use tax now due on it to CA.

As I pointed out to everyone, this clearly demonstrates that there is likely no infinite period of time during which a sales/use obligation will or can be imposed on items first put into a vault to escape sales taxes, and later taken out and brought back into an owner's home state that does have sales/use taxes. If you're in CA, I would think this one-year period for escaping sales/use tax on vehicles could very easily be used and crossed over to cards in a vault. For other states, I'd again suggest researching that specific state's sales/use tax laws to see if there are any timing deadlines/thresholds that are mentioned, and that you can then possibly use to determine how long you want to wait before trying to bring items you initially had sent to a vault, home to you.

And as mentioned, this vault thing is really set up more for the flippers/dealers/investors, and not something any true collector normally ever wants to get involved in or with. And that includes potential issues with someone else holding your cards and how these vaults are NOT like bank safe deposit boxes, where if something ever happens to the bank, whatever is in your safe deposit box is always your property, without question, period. I believe it was Adam (Exhibitman) who pointed out to truly safeguard items you have sitting in someone's "vault", you should probably be preparing UCC filings, and continuously updating and filing them with the applicable Secretary of State's office, to truly protect your cards and items being held for you by someone else.

[russkcpa]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The sales tax thing is mostly BS. UNLESS you never take possession of the card and the vault owner sells it for you, or you leave the card there for a long time probably six months or more, you still owe your home state a use tax when you get the card. Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't make it easier to evade (not avoid) taxes, it does.

When I lived in Massachusetts we ran into "use tax" concerns many times with clients purchasing high value items in New Hampshire (a no sales tax state) and bringing them over the border as an end user to Massachusetts. It is virtually impossible to police unless you have MA DOR agents at the border. After the SJC ruled on South Dakota v Wayfair it opened the flood gates for online sales from large sellers who have "nexus" in each state to collect and remit sales tax (e.g. Amazon ) Now with Ebay collecting and remitting sales tax on behalf of sellers it is a bonanza for all states.

[mrreality68]

May work for some but it is not for me.

Great recap above about them.

I as a collector like to have them closer to me to enjoy and more control over it

[Fred]

Thanks for the responses about the vault. Based on what I read, I guess I'm a traditional collector and not very progressive. I like to hold the cards I acquire. Holding them (to me) is what it's about.

What happens if one of these companies declare bankruptcy or is sued and forced into receivership? Is there a contract which ensures that the "owner" of the card(s) will receive them and that the cards are not liquidated to pay off creditors? I'm assuming this is the case.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Fred

Thanks for the responses about the vault. Based on what I read, I guess I'm a traditional collector and not very progressive. I like to hold the cards I acquire. Holding them (to me) is what it's about.

What happens if one of these companies declare bankruptcy or is sued and forced into receivership? Is there a contract which ensures that the "owner" of the card(s) will receive them and that the cards are not liquidated to pay off creditors? I'm assuming this is the case.

If there is a contract, I haven’t seen it. But perhaps a few of the posters who noted above that they use the vault have seen one.

I will admit that I’ve only had one item on a vault, albeit unwittingly. I won an auction from a site, and the default shipping option when checking out was to ship it to their vault. Not taking the time to inspect the details, I paid my small bill and patiently waited for my item to come in the mail. It was probably about $30, so definitely nothing exciting.

A few weeks later, I realized my item still hadn’t arrived, so I logged in, and noticed that I now had one item in my vault inventory. At that point, I clicked a few buttons and had them ship it to me. No big deal. However, at no point was there any paperwork involved, or if there were details, terms and conditions, they were artfully hidden somewhere in the fine print that I wasn’t paying attention to when I completed my purchase. It’s possible that it exists somewhere if you dig hard enough to get it, but it’s not like they sent me anything formal (not even an email) to evidence their stewardship of my assets and the terms that would apply to that custodial relationship.

Even if there are terms and conditions that are written as favorable to me, and even if they were enforceable (some important ifs there…), I’m not sure that I want to have to go through the heartache and trouble of getting my items back if anything terrible were to happen. Any given collector may be up for that process, but it‘s certainly one of the big reasons why I’ve never seriously considered using a vault.

[LEHR]

I do not use the vaults and personally never will. I've never understood buying an item and sending it to a vault or even a safety deposit box. Everything I own is insured and kept at my house to enjoy.

[bengineno9]

No thank you.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLMhMxEn...=1mee41wy16nl6

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Fred

Thanks for the responses about the vault. Based on what I read, I guess I'm a traditional collector and not very progressive. I like to hold the cards I acquire. Holding them (to me) is what it's about.

What happens if one of these companies declare bankruptcy or is sued and forced into receivership? Is there a contract which ensures that the "owner" of the card(s) will receive them and that the cards are not liquidated to pay off creditors? I'm assuming this is the case.

Last paragraph, post #20. Had been discussed before in other thread(s) how if the vault company has a problem (bankruptcy, etc.) that your cards may not be automatically returned to you. Making a UCC filing with the applicable Secretary of State's office listing all your cards held in a vault would be how to protect your property being held for you by someone else. The filing documents your ownership of the listed property. You'd need to update and keep making new UCC filings as you made changes to what was being held in a vault for you, so it isn't necessarily just a one-time filing to protect your assets being held in a vault.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by BobC

Last paragraph, post #20. Had been discussed before in other thread(s) how if the vault company has a problem (bankruptcy, etc.) that your cards may not be automatically returned to you. Making a UCC filing with the applicable Secretary of State's office listing all your cards held in a vault would be how to protect your property being held for you by someone else. The filing documents your ownership of the listed property. You'd need to update and keep making new UCC filings as you made changes to what was being held in a vault for you, so it isn't necessarily just a one-time filing to protect your assets being held in a vault.

How bulletproof is a UCC filing in this situation?

And how much time/energy/work would it take to enforce your rights?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

How bulletproof is a UCC filing in this situation?

And how much time/energy/work would it take to enforce your rights?

IMO a UCC filing is not necessary as a technical matter for reasons previously discussed at length, but it sure as hell cannot hurt, is inexpensive, and would make things cleaner should there be a problem. But to me that someone even needs to contemplate filing a UCC is a red flag that this is not a great idea.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by raulus

How bulletproof is a UCC filing in this situation?

And how much time/energy/work would it take to enforce your rights?

Adam (exhibitman) pointed this out in an earlier thread. He's the attorney, I'm just repeating it since he hasn't weighed in on this thread yet. I'll defer to him or other attorneys as to the effectiveness of filing, but he seemed pretty confident in it as an effective way to more fully protect your cards/items being held in a vault. He mentioned being able to easily download the UCC form(s) online, and that the filing fee(s) are negligible (believe he mentioned something like $5). Of course, you have to file with the Secretary of State's office for the state where the vault is actually located. So, there could be some differences in the filings or costs, depending on which state(s) you would end up filing in. And I guess the time/effort would also be dependent on how many different items you have to list, and how often you add or remove things from your vault so you end up having to revise and update your UCC filing. Again, I'll defer to the attorneys for better details.