1949 Leaf Theory

steve B · #1 11-28-2022, 10:17 AM

I've been working off and on doing a spreadsheet of 49 Leaf Images.

Hardly complete, and I still find new ones.
As things are now, I'm up to at least 4 different runs, maybe as high as 6.

The obvious Pink ones. these so far always have the sides to the portraits, or the lines across the ends of bats. On some cards it can be tough to spot.

The ones with lines across the bats and portraits, but with red instead of Pink.

With lines, but shaded or dark hats

Without the lines regular hats

Without lines Shaded hats.

That's all sort of preliminary. the hat shading may not be consistent, but I think it is.

Where the background does not make a line across a bat, the yellow extends to the edge, but the black does not. On ones with the lines, the yellow often doesn't extend to the edge, but I have seen at least one where it does.

Most of the easily recognizable color differences are consistent with only one version.

I believe the yellow backgrounds Like the Johnson here are a different printing where no blue was used to mix with yellow.

An amazingly complex set for just 50 cards. (I think of the rare numbers as their own set. )

yanks87 · #2 11-28-2022, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

I've been working off and on doing a spreadsheet of 49 Leaf Images.

Hardly complete, and I still find new ones.
As things are now, I'm up to at least 4 different runs, maybe as high as 6.

The obvious Pink ones. these so far always have the sides to the portraits, or the lines across the ends of bats. On some cards it can be tough to spot.

The ones with lines across the bats and portraits, but with red instead of Pink.

With lines, but shaded or dark hats

Without the lines regular hats

Without lines Shaded hats.

That's all sort of preliminary. the hat shading may not be consistent, but I think it is.

Where the background does not make a line across a bat, the yellow extends to the edge, but the black does not. On ones with the lines, the yellow often doesn't extend to the edge, but I have seen at least one where it does.

Most of the easily recognizable color differences are consistent with only one version.

I believe the yellow backgrounds Like the Johnson here are a different printing where no blue was used to mix with yellow.

An amazingly complex set for just 50 cards. (I think of the rare numbers as their own set. )

Great research. I feel like "we" (the collectors) need to come up with a designation for how best to characterize the print runs on these. The color variations are definite flags of different runs, as different inks were used. Then we have the actual plate changes, the recognized Peterson and Aberson variations actually extend to many more. Then there are the outliers.

My thought is that the plate changes represent a definite "variation" as there was a physical change made to the printing plate, though the rest of the card stayed the same. Those variations are measurable and not as subjective as the tints of the inks, though those tints are SUPER important in decoding how many different printing runs were made. The Rizzuto that you have shown has two changes made to it (outside of ink colors), the detail of his hat was removed making it blue, and the background red was extended to the nameplate. The only other player that I have found to get this treatment is Jackie Robinson, though the Babe Ruth card has a variation where the "background connector" is added, but the hat is untouched.

Complex is certainly the best way to characterize it, as I have gotten deeper into the research I have really started to enjoy the quirkiness of the cards, outside of their value in the hobby, but also representing a fascinating time in the game.

steve B · #3 11-28-2022, 11:57 AM

What I'm thinking of doing is assigning a number to the identifiable plates for each basic color. So like R1 and R2 to indicate a particular red plate as opposed to another.

But that ends up making the overall "number" for a card something like
card #3 - C1 R2 Y2 K2

Which is fine for a start but awkward, and there's no real idea which should be 1 or 2 - did the ones with the extra lines come first or second?

The pink ones - actual Magenta- would probably be something like R2P...

At least it would help group things.

Most cards with anything close to the border have diferences in that area. The lines next to portraits and across the end of bats. Hats get cut down in multiple colors, and often there are three different is the hat is cut down.
Normal hat
Hat cut down background normal
Hat and background cut down
(And probably ones with the background cut down but the hat normal.

It might be possible to limit how many intermediate types I have to look for, since the typical process is to print light to dark. So YMCK or YCMK. But I suspect Leaf didn't necessarily follow that. (Fleer star stickers in 81 were sometimes printed with the blue over the black, and T206s are known with just yellow and brown, so it's not really a hard rule.

steve B · #4 11-28-2022, 11:59 AM

There are a few where I haven't found a difference yet.

yanks87 · #5 11-28-2022, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

What I'm thinking of doing is assigning a number to the identifiable plates for each basic color. So like R1 and R2 to indicate a particular red plate as opposed to another.

But that ends up making the overall "number" for a card something like
card #3 - C1 R2 Y2 K2

Which is fine for a start but awkward, and there's no real idea which should be 1 or 2 - did the ones with the extra lines come first or second?

The pink ones - actual Magenta- would probably be something like R2P...

At least it would help group things.

Most cards with anything close to the border have diferences in that area. The lines next to portraits and across the end of bats. Hats get cut down in multiple colors, and often there are three different is the hat is cut down.
Normal hat
Hat cut down background normal
Hat and background cut down
(And probably ones with the background cut down but the hat normal.

It might be possible to limit how many intermediate types I have to look for, since the typical process is to print light to dark. So YMCK or YCMK. But I suspect Leaf didn't necessarily follow that. (Fleer star stickers in 81 were sometimes printed with the blue over the black, and T206s are known with just yellow and brown, so it's not really a hard rule.

I'm thinking the removal of details and addition of lines happened second. A smaller run, they represent about 34-36% of the population using the Peterson and Aberson as a guide. Hermanski is an oddity, I see that more as a inking error, but the population falls in line with the percentages, and I have seen that variation in the Magenta color way, but WHY would they change it to the wrong name, makes no sense.

Still a barrel of nuts to crack on this one.

Pat R · #6 11-28-2022, 06:58 PM

Is the only known uncut sheet the one in Ted's black and white image?

yanks87 · #7 11-29-2022, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

Is the only known uncut sheet the one in Ted's black and white image?

It�s the only one I�ve come across.

Pat R · #8 12-23-2022, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yanks87

Great research. I feel like "we" (the collectors) need to come up with a designation for how best to characterize the print runs on these. The color variations are definite flags of different runs, as different inks were used. Then we have the actual plate changes, the recognized Peterson and Aberson variations actually extend to many more. Then there are the outliers.

My thought is that the plate changes represent a definite "variation" as there was a physical change made to the printing plate, though the rest of the card stayed the same. Those variations are measurable and not as subjective as the tints of the inks, though those tints are SUPER important in decoding how many different printing runs were made. The Rizzuto that you have shown has two changes made to it (outside of ink colors), the detail of his hat was removed making it blue, and the background red was extended to the nameplate. The only other player that I have found to get this treatment is Jackie Robinson, though the Babe Ruth card has a variation where the "background connector" is added, but the hat is untouched.

Complex is certainly the best way to characterize it, as I have gotten deeper into the research I have really started to enjoy the quirkiness of the cards, outside of their value in the hobby, but also representing a fascinating time in the game.

I'm not very versed on the Leaf set but I do do a lot of research on variations in different sets so I picked the Jensen (Jansen) card to do some research on and I came up
with as many as 4 possible variations with 2 color variations for for each one of them for a total of 8 possible variations for each subject on the first series sheet.

On the background color variations I think it has more to do with a difference in cardstock than it does the the actual ink color used. On the pink or
pinkish variations the fronts seem to be a whiter stock and it also feels thicker to me.

I researched 386 Jensen cards and here's what I found

This is the first variation and by far the most common with 236 or 61.13% of the Jensen's I checked.

This variation has no white above the hat and they all have a round black dot in the J

The one on the right has a pinkish hue in hand but for some reason it looks more orange in my scan

[IMG]

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[IMG]

[/IMG]

The next variation has a big white area above his hat and this is the variation that has all of the pink variations in it. There were 62 of the 386 or 16.06% of this variation
and 25-30% were pink or around 5% of the 386. I also think this is the variation on the sheet Ted posted.

[IMG]

[/IMG]

[IMG]

[/IMG]

The next variation has a smaller white area above his hat and is the least common with 28 or 6.99% of the 386.

The one on the right is also pinker in hand than it is in the scan
[IMG]

[/IMG]

[IMG]

[/IMG]

the Last variation has no white above his hat and no black dot in the J there were 60 or 15.54% of the 386 of this variation.

I don't have the two variations of this one yet.

[IMG]

[/IMG]

steve B · #9 12-23-2022, 10:03 AM

I think the stock differences do affect the color of the red a bit.

I hadn't started doing the stock differences, as I've concentrated on the large variety of differences on the fronts.

Of the ones Pat has posted, the last one is the only one I didn't have an image of.

Up close, do any of them show yellow anywhere? Having or not having the yellow could affect how the red seems too.

One thing I like is the images of the edges. You can see the diagonal lines where the cutting blade had tiny nicks.

steve_a · #10 12-23-2022, 12:07 PM

Great work as always Pat, your patience is amazing. A question for you or maybe better for SteveB. If a complete sheet has four panels & four Jensens, how are those panels created? ie; would we expect a variation in one panel or a change in the entire sheet as a print run goes on. And a similar question, if the hat variations are blue registration issues, how consistent would we expect those to be? That is, are registration issues gradual in nature or stepped? Jensens ear on the right below shows a separated red & blue layer for instance and caught my eye. Just curious on the nuts & bolts of actual print process.

yanks87 · #11 12-23-2022, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_a

Great work as always Pat, your patience is amazing. A question for you or maybe better for SteveB. If a complete sheet has four panels & four Jensens, how are those panels created? ie; would we expect a variation in one panel or a change in the entire sheet as a print run goes on. And a similar question, if the hat variations are blue registration issues, how consistent would we expect those to be? That is, are registration issues gradual in nature or stepped? Jensens ear on the right below shows a separated red & blue layer for instance and caught my eye. Just curious on the nuts & bolts of actual print process.

This one leans into the research that I have been doing on the process and the printing of the cards themselves. Throw the Jensen on the list of the variations, one that I had never really picked up. Registration issues would be consistent across a a printing run, but would depend on the kind of press that they used (Single color or 4 color lithography). I spoke in depth about the printing process with my Great Uncle (just turned 99, still sharp as a tack). We covered all aspects of his opinions on this set, he worked at a commercial printing company in NYC in the 40's after the war. He said that elements could be taken out of the images on press, so if there was some element that didn't look right, it could be scrubbed from the plate. That said, the plate and the stock never came into direct contact, so in theory, if something was off registration, it would be carried across all the prints in that run. To my eye, it looks like plate variations more than registration issues. The WHY is the big question I am wrestling with now. Why change the blue plate, why remove the details on the hats on tother players, why change the sleeves on the Aberson's. Odd stuff, but fun to check out.

One thing that my Uncle also said, there was no adding elements to the plate, unless you etched a new plate. He said the only time that you would change a plate would be when a plate would wear down, or if they we moved to a different factory, different printer. So this makes cards like Aberson, Ruth, Rizzuto, and Robinson and potentially Jensen interesting variations. I do think the PINK versions were late in the game, and from the conversations I had with my Great Uncle, he thinks that the pink may have more about the ink that was available or what was cheapest to buy at the time.

I have a running theory that the cards were printed at the factory in Chicago where the candy packaging was printed. The stock looks similar to the packaging of WHOPPERS that was produced by Overland Confectionary, a brand that was consolidated and under the Leaf Brands family name in 1947. I have seen images of that stock, and it looks similar. My Uncle did say whoever printed these, were "Not the guys you would want to print a copy of a Van Gogh." I asked him what would lead to this many errors and variations, he laughed and said "they may have been drunk." Which caught me off guard! He said "these guys printing would be the equivalent of "bringing the space shuttle to be serviced at the corner mechanic."

Pat R · #12 12-23-2022, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

I think the stock differences do affect the color of the red a bit.

I hadn't started doing the stock differences, as I've concentrated on the large variety of differences on the fronts.

Of the ones Pat has posted, the last one is the only one I didn't have an image of.

Up close, do any of them show yellow anywhere? Having or not having the yellow could affect how the red seems too.

One thing I like is the images of the edges. You can see the diagonal lines where the cutting blade had tiny nicks.

I don't see evidence of yellow on any of them Steve.

Pat R · #13 12-23-2022, 04:45 PM

This is purely speculation but I wonder if this was just packaging or if there were any cards involved in this fire.

July 1949
img301.jpg

leaflover · #14 12-23-2022, 05:11 PM

Here are 2 favorites of mine. Adams and Wyrostek with uniform detail not seen
on examples. The face of Wyrostek is actually focused.

yanks87 · #15 12-23-2022, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

This is purely speculation but I wonder if this was just packaging or if there were any cards involved in this fire.

July 1949
Attachment 548800

Super interesting! I wonder if this is a factor that prompted another printing?!

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