1949 Leaf Theory

tedzan · #1 11-28-2022, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Brian

Regarding, the BOWMAN lawsuit.....there are two stories to it. One factor deals with the Rights of the players.

The 2nd deals with the labeling on the BOWMAN and LEAF wax-packs wrappers. I will scan my two 1949 LEAF
BB wax-pack wrappers and post them tomorrow to show you the difference.

The BOWMAN lawsuit forced LEAF to modify their wrapper labeling quite fast. The wrappers containing the 2nd
Series cards (short-prints) issued in the Summer of 1949 are different.

Hi Brian

This illustrates the above stated 2nd lawsuit (BOWMAN vs LEAF) regarding the use of the wording " BASEBALL BUBBLE GUM "
on the wax-pack wrapper. BOWMAN claimed they owned the Copyright for that term. So, LEAF removed the word " BASEBALL "
from their wax-pack wrapper when they issued their 2nd Series of cards in the Summer of 1949.

1949 BOWMAN ------------------------------------------ 1949 LEAF 1st Series -------------------------- 1949 LEAF 2nd Series

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Pat R · #2 11-28-2022, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Brian

This illustrates the above stated 2nd lawsuit (BOWMAN vs LEAF) regarding the use of the wording " BASEBALL BUBBLE GUM "
on the wax-pack wrapper. BOWMAN claimed they owned the Copyright for that term. So, LEAF removed the word " BASEBALL "
from their wax-pack wrapper when they issued their 2nd Series of cards in the Summer of 1949.

1949 BOWMAN ------------------------------------------ 1949 LEAF 1st Series -------------------------- 1949 LEAF 2nd Series

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Isn't the last wrapper a football wrapper?

Rad_Hazard · #3 11-28-2022, 10:33 PM

Interesting thread on an interesting set.

When I read the title I originally thought "what a great college course!".

1949 Leaf Theory - 3 Credits - Spring Semester

yanks87 · #4 11-29-2022, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

Interesting thread on an interesting set.

When I read the title I originally thought "what a great college course!".

1949 Leaf Theory - 3 Credits - Spring Semester

Agreed! I�ve been in full study mode this entire semester!

tedzan · #5 11-29-2022, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

Isn't the last wrapper a football wrapper?

The wax-pack wrappers of Al Rosen's unopened find of 1949 LEAF Baseball (2nd Series, 596-cards) find, in Tampa (Florida) in 1989 were labelled "ALL
STAR Pictures".

Incidentally....Although these cards were acquired in Florida, the original provenance of this collection was the Detroit area in Michigan.
This fact sounds like another Florida acquisition that has been debated on Net54, whose provenance was originally in the northern U.S.

The Football wrappers were labelled ALL-STAR FOOTBALL in 1948. In 1949, it is my understanding that they may have been labelled " FOOTBALL ",
or " PICTURES ".

In the Fall of 1948, LEAF issued their ALL-STAR FOOTBALL GUM set comprising of 98 cards. Issued in two 49-card series. Jackie Jensen's rookie card
is in the tougher Hi # series. A great FB and BB athlete, Jackie decided in favor of Baseball when he signed with the Oakland Oaks PCL team in 1949.

ALL-STAR FOOTBALL GUM issued in 1949 (49 cards).

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

G1911 · #6 11-29-2022, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Incidentally....Although these cards were acquired in Florida, the original provenance of this collection was the Detroit area in Michigan.
This fact sounds like another Florida acquisition that has been debated on Net54, whose provenance was originally in the northern U.S.

.

We are still eagerly awaiting that evidence from your research that the T206 �sheet� was discovered in New York, not Florida, since you�re bringing it up.

yanks87 · #7 11-29-2022, 12:26 PM

Speaking of the uncut sheet, if it is real, it confirms the wholesale changes that were made to update the cards. The only one that is a little bit of a head scratcher is the population of the Aberson sleeve variations.

In the image, it shows the 3 "accepted" variations:
Aberson - Short Sleeve PSA/SGC Pop: 95/29 - 124 total
Peterson - Dark Cap PSA/SGC Pop: 144/16 - 160 total
Hermanski* - Full Name PSA/SGC Pop: 231/97 - 328 total

The Variation populations on these:
Aberson - Long Sleeve PSA/SGC Pop: 154/24 - 178 total
Peterson - Red Cap PSA/SGC Pop: 86/24 - 110 total
Hermansk* - Missing I PSA/SGC Pop: 97/4 - 101 total

In theory the total number of Aberson short sleeve cards should be higher than the long sleeve, but from the looks of it, older grades did not delineate between the two versions for both grading houses. I put the * on Hermanski as it really falls into the category of "inking error" to me. If the numbers tell the story, there is a slightly smaller population of the second printing, but if you search the bigger cards, the variations seem to be much more rare than 30%. On a quick visual search of Heritage past sales, 156 Jackie Robinson's sold (not accounting for doubles) only 17 are from the second printing (no hat detail, color bar connecting background to name plate). That to me shows rarity in variation.

The research continues.

tedzan · #8 11-29-2022, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yanks87

Speaking of the uncut sheet, if it is real, it confirms the wholesale changes that were made to update the cards. The only one that is a little bit of a head scratcher is the population of the Aberson sleeve variations.

In the image, it shows the 3 "accepted" variations:
Aberson - Short Sleeve PSA/SGC Pop: 95/29 - 124 total
Peterson - Dark Cap PSA/SGC Pop: 144/16 - 160 total
Hermanski* - Full Name PSA/SGC Pop: 231/97 - 328 total

The Variation populations on these:
Aberson - Long Sleeve PSA/SGC Pop: 154/24 - 178 total
Peterson - Red Cap PSA/SGC Pop: 86/24 - 110 total
Hermansk* - Missing I PSA/SGC Pop: 97/4 - 101 total

In theory the total number of Aberson short sleeve cards should be higher than the long sleeve, but from the looks of it, older grades did not delineate between the two versions for both grading houses. I put the * on Hermanski as it really falls into the category of "inking error" to me. If the numbers tell the story, there is a slightly smaller population of the second printing, but if you search the bigger cards, the variations seem to be much more rare than 30%. On a quick visual search of Heritage past sales, 156 Jackie Robinson's sold (not accounting for doubles) only 17 are from the second printing (no hat detail, color bar connecting background to name plate). That to me shows rarity in variation.

The research continues.

Brian
Excuse me for correcting you.....but the Aberson (Short-Sleeve) version is the variation. The long sleeve-version was printed in the initial press runs.

I recall having several Long-Sleeve versions in my collection when I recovered my 1949 LEAF cards in 1977. No Short-Sleeve Aberson's were in 100's
of 1949 LEAF cards.

Furthermore, no Peterson with the Red Cap in my original 1949 LEAF collection.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

yanks87 · #9 11-29-2022, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Brian
Excuse me for correcting you.....but the Aberson (Short-Sleeve) version is the variation. The long sleeve-version was printed in the initial press runs.

I recall having several Long-Sleeve versions in my collection when I recovered my 1949 LEAF cards in 1977. No Short-Sleeve Aberson's were in 100's
of 1949 LEAF cards.

Furthermore, no Peterson with the Red Cap in my original 1949 LEAF collection.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

The population would back that up, but the sheet image does not as the short sleeve version is shown with the original run. All part of the puzzle I guess!

tjisonline · #10 11-11-2023, 10:22 AM

Just picked up my first Leaf Jackie Robinson after researching over a year. Looked at many past auctions. I also saw the 2nd plate version (no cap detail / color bright blue) far less than the 1st

Quote:

Originally Posted by yanks87

Speaking of the uncut sheet, if it is real, it confirms the wholesale changes that were made to update the cards. The only one that is a little bit of a head scratcher is the population of the Aberson sleeve variations.

In the image, it shows the 3 "accepted" variations:
Aberson - Short Sleeve PSA/SGC Pop: 95/29 - 124 total
Peterson - Dark Cap PSA/SGC Pop: 144/16 - 160 total
Hermanski* - Full Name PSA/SGC Pop: 231/97 - 328 total

The Variation populations on these:
Aberson - Long Sleeve PSA/SGC Pop: 154/24 - 178 total
Peterson - Red Cap PSA/SGC Pop: 86/24 - 110 total
Hermansk* - Missing I PSA/SGC Pop: 97/4 - 101 total

In theory the total number of Aberson short sleeve cards should be higher than the long sleeve, but from the looks of it, older grades did not delineate between the two versions for both grading houses. I put the * on Hermanski as it really falls into the category of "inking error" to me. If the numbers tell the story, there is a slightly smaller population of the second printing, but if you search the bigger cards, the variations seem to be much more rare than 30%. On a quick visual search of Heritage past sales, 156 Jackie Robinson's sold (not accounting for doubles) only 17 are from the second printing (no hat detail, color bar connecting background to name plate). That to me shows rarity in variation.

The research continues.

yanks87 · #11 11-11-2023, 08:00 PM

Congrats! That�s a big card!

steve B · #12 11-13-2023, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaisonline

Just picked up my first Leaf Jackie Robinson after researching over a year. Looked at many past auctions. I also saw the 2nd plate version (no cap detail / color bright blue) far less than the 1st

The no cap detail Jackie also has the yellow bars at the sides, and occasionally comes with the "red" actually being Magenta. One of the more subtle ones. The red background ones are bright pink.

I haven't seen any odd trasnsitional versions, either because there weren't any or because the card is a straightforward portrait.

Pat R · #13 12-01-2022, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

We are still eagerly awaiting that evidence from your research that the T206 ‘sheet’ was discovered in New York, not Florida, since you’re bringing it up.

That's the MO when presented with opposing facts to the theories like the Rosen find pack in the REA auction that says Baseball Bubble Gum on it or the Dahlen Brooklyn with the factory sheet number that shows he was printed with the 150/350 subjects not the 350 only subjects just to name a couple.

G1911 · #14 12-01-2022, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

That's the MO when presented with opposing facts to the theories like the Rosen find pack in the REA auction that says Baseball Bubble Gum on it or the Dahlen Brooklyn with the factory sheet number that shows he was printed with the 150/350 subjects not the 350 only subjects just to name a couple.

One would think that, when caught not having what one claims to have (in this case evidence from alleged �research� disproving the Sevchuk claim and Florida origin of the find), that one would drop the issue instead of bringing it up, for no reason or gain, again in unrelated threads. It�s a shame some folks just make up non-existent �research� to support an idea they like without any regard to the truth.

steve_a · #15 12-01-2022, 05:08 PM

Here's two images for reference

The first is a complete uncut sheet. (I've seen this around but not sure who the first to post was, I think I first saw it on toppsaholic blog). It depicts a complete sheet as four identical 7x7 panels. Given the short run of Leaf cards I assume that all sets were done the same way. Among my errors I have a few that would question this but certainly that seems the way it was done for production.

The second image is my depiction of an uncut panel of Rare Leafs. These cards were placed by very fun research and collecting of error and miscut cards (which may be most leafs tbh)

Pat R · #16 11-29-2022, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

The wax-pack wrappers of Al Rosen's unopened find of 1949 LEAF Baseball (2nd Series, 596-cards) find, in Tampa (Florida) in 1989 were labelled "ALL
STAR Pictures".

Incidentally....Although these cards were acquired in Florida, the original provenance of this collection was the Detroit area in Michigan.
This fact sounds like another Florida acquisition that has been debated on Net54, whose provenance was originally in the northern U.S.

The Football wrappers were labelled ALL-STAR FOOTBALL in 1948. In 1949, it is my understanding that they may have been labelled " FOOTBALL ",
or " PICTURES ".

In the Fall of 1948, LEAF issued their ALL-STAR FOOTBALL GUM set comprising of 98 cards. Issued in two 49-card series. Jackie Jensen's rookie card
is in the tougher Hi # series. A great FB and BB athlete, Jackie decided in favor of Baseball when he signed with the Oakland Oaks PCL team in 1949.

ALL-STAR FOOTBALL GUM issued in 1949 (49 cards).

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

There are several facts that show that the third wrapper is a Leaf football Wrapper and not a baseball wrapper.

1. I don't think the wording on the Leaf Wrapper was an issue with bowman it wasn't even mentioned in the article I posted about the court hearing.

2. Even if it was an issue I don't think they could have done anything about it based on the court information from when Bowman sued Topps.
But the term "baseball" is not subject to monopolistic appropriation by the plaintiff. The term is generic and descriptive; nor is there any proof that as used by the plaintiff it acquired secondary significance as indicating the source or origin of the gum sold. Nor is there any secondary significance arising from the designation of the product in connection with the name of any famous player. The case might be different if the plaintiffs were selling a product under the designation of some one name. Such use might readily build up good will, and an invasion on the part of one not privileged to use the name would be subject to restraint. In the circumstances of this case though, we have no such situation. On the contrary, the facts and applicable law fall readily within such authorities as Kellogg Co. v. National Biscuit Co., 305 U.S. 111, 59 S. Ct. 109, 113, 83 L. Ed. 73, in which it was held that *948 "Shredded Wheat" was a generic term, not subject to exclusive appropriation by the original maker of the product. The court said:

3. The wrappers in the 2nd series Rosen find say "All Star Baseball Bubble Gum"
[IMG][/IMG]
https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=44356

and an August 18 1949 ad about packages of Leaf Baseball cards that they were giving out specifically states "a package of Baseball Bubble Gum".

img218.jpg

This older thread that no longer has the images has a discussion on the 1949 football packs https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...highlight=Leaf

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