Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

steve B · #1 11-29-2022, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I don�t know printing, but I have never found evidence on the cards themselves for this or in the documentary material that we have uncovered. Not all backs were monotone, most were but not all (T68 Natural Leaf springs to mind immediately). I would expect that, if a sheet had the backs printed and was then shipped to another facility and had the fronts printed there at a different time, that this would result in more back/front centering mismatch than we actually see. Perhaps this assumption is faulty. It would also add expense, I would think, doubling your transportation at least. Fullgraff�s available pages from his ledger seems to indicate full cards at Brett, nothing specified that they are only doing half the work when the tables are accounting volumes printed.

Is there anything we have in support of a geographic and significant time gap between the back and front printings? Looking at our printer experts here.

To me, and I have no idea how many others even partly agree, leftover sheets would have been used either as press adjustment sheets, or to fill orders when a few cards were needed after the group they were originally intended for was shipped. The best evidence of this is the 150 only card that now has a single P350.

From every indication, fronts were printed, then backs. For Piedmont and SC, that back printing would have been almost continuous. For the brands using far fewer cards it may have been whatever was the current group of fronts at the time the order came in.
It's possible small brands or groups of small brands got their own sheets, but that's still something that's wide open for study.

Those T220 sheet fragments and the added Fullgraff info, is the first indication I've seen that any of the work was farmed out to other print shops. And it opens up a whole range of possibilities.

G1911 · #2 11-29-2022, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

To me, and I have no idea how many others even partly agree, leftover sheets would have been used either as press adjustment sheets, or to fill orders when a few cards were needed after the group they were originally intended for was shipped. The best evidence of this is the 150 only card that now has a single P350.

From every indication, fronts were printed, then backs. For Piedmont and SC, that back printing would have been almost continuous. For the brands using far fewer cards it may have been whatever was the current group of fronts at the time the order came in.
It's possible small brands or groups of small brands got their own sheets, but that's still something that's wide open for study.

Those T220 sheet fragments and the added Fullgraff info, is the first indication I've seen that any of the work was farmed out to other print shops. And it opens up a whole range of possibilities.

This is speculation, but I suspect "for the brands using far fewer cards it may have been whatever was the current group of fronts at the time the order came in" is exactly right; whatever the sheets currently being run were were printed up when that brand 'ordered' or however it was chosen that X brand would get Y card set. I doubt it was a pre-planned thing that, say, T42 would only appear on 25 of the 50 white border subjects with Emblem brand backs. I think this is indicative that some series were printed in waves; that, say, a big case of Piedmont packs sent to a distributor would not have all 50 subjects included in its packs, but only the same 25 subjects. Brands with only half weren't printed during both waves. There are strong indications, not absolute proof, of this wave type issuing in the ATC ledger.

As far as I am aware and remembering right now, before the T220 sheet we really only had the Ball letter that said it was American Lithographic doing the printing. Brett, Fullgraff's journal, Hyland's letter and the resulting other documents that were found mentioning some non-sport sets and silks were the first evidence (and they are conclusive evidence, this part is fact) that it was not AL directly doing the whole T card project with the ATC. It is deduction that AL farmed the work out to Brett and likely others; there is no hard evidence that Brett was a subsidiary partner of AL's silent monopoly, but I think that is probably the case and the anti-trust politics of the time mean we will never find a smoking gun document.

I think the find also suggests it may not have been just the ATC, but other non-cigarette makers involved in this project. The E229/D353 sheets originating with it, that bear a very similar list of names to those contracted with the ATC and their printers, are likely related. This connection is an opinion deduced from the evidence and not a proven fact.

Pat R · #3 11-29-2022, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

To me, and I have no idea how many others even partly agree, leftover sheets would have been used either as press adjustment sheets, or to fill orders when a few cards were needed after the group they were originally intended for was shipped. The best evidence of this is the 150 only card that now has a single P350.

From every indication, fronts were printed, then backs. For Piedmont and SC, that back printing would have been almost continuous. For the brands using far fewer cards it may have been whatever was the current group of fronts at the time the order came in.
It's possible small brands or groups of small brands got their own sheets, but that's still something that's wide open for study.

Those T220 sheet fragments and the added Fullgraff info, is the first indication I've seen that any of the work was farmed out to other print shops. And it opens up a whole range of possibilities.

These are some of the things that I have been working on with the print flaws. I'm pretty sure that the Old Mills and SC350/25's along with the Sovereign and Piedmont 350's were printed together or at the very least printed back to back.
I'm also almost certain that the T206's weren't all printed at the same facility.

steve B · #4 11-30-2022, 08:20 AM

If I ever get the chance, I want to go to the Lowell Historical society and see what info they might have on a local printer.
The company that did the orange borders boxes specialized in candy boxes. Those share some images with T206.

The company was in Boston, moved to Lowell with some publicity, printed the orange borders here in their new plant, and promptly went out of business.

I don't really have a solid address for that new plant, I have a guess as to where it was, but it's not making sense compared to the buildings there now, which are both old enough to be it. Unless the plant had to be torn down from a fire or something. and the current buildings are the replacements.

All of it makes me wonder if what I see as three different runs for much of the 150 and 350 series were more an issue of three different printers. Multiple shops being subcontractors makes the need for constant production less pressing.

Pat R · #5 12-11-2022, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

If I ever get the chance, I want to go to the Lowell Historical society and see what info they might have on a local printer.
The company that did the orange borders boxes specialized in candy boxes. Those share some images with T206.

The company was in Boston, moved to Lowell with some publicity, printed the orange borders here in their new plant, and promptly went out of business.

I don't really have a solid address for that new plant, I have a guess as to where it was, but it's not making sense compared to the buildings there now, which are both old enough to be it. Unless the plant had to be torn down from a fire or something. and the current buildings are the replacements.

All of it makes me wonder if what I see as three different runs for much of the 150 and 350 series were more an issue of three different printers. Multiple shops being subcontractors makes the need for constant production less pressing.

It is strange I can't find anything from 1911-1918 but I found addresses from 1905-1930 minus the 8 year gap in the middle.

1905-1907 463 Commercial street Boston Mass.
1908-1910 Warrensville Lowell Mass.
1911-1918 ?
1919-1930 210 Broadway Everett Mass.

This might have had something to do with the gap

From the Boston Globe August 23 1913
img246.jpg

Pat R · #6 12-11-2022, 11:18 PM

I found some more information regarding the 1911-1918 gap. It looks like he filed for bankruptcy in 1910 and then his sons might have started the business back up again in 1919.

December 1910
img247.jpg

May 1927
img248.jpg
img249.jpg

steve B · #7 12-12-2022, 10:21 AM

Interesting stuff, a lot more than I had found a while back.

The local historical society is an interesting mix of things, all local newspapers going back essentially to the beginning either hard copy or microfilm.
Tons of pictures from when a city wide architectural survey was done I think as a prelude to establishing the national park downtown.

But most other things are spotty and seldom organized at all.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
The famous mystery lot is back!	GrayGhost	Live Auctions - Only 2-3 open, per member, at once.	8	04-26-2021 12:11 AM
N172 Danny Richardson with famous hobby pioneer back stampSOLD	JMANOS	19th Century Cards & ALL Baseball Postcards- B/S/T	3	02-14-2019 06:56 AM
Phoenix and Surrounding Areas Card Shops	Danny Smith	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	2	03-22-2015 01:33 PM
The Most Famous Hobby Person that Posts	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	33	01-09-2007 06:26 PM
Famous hobby fistfights	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	11	02-18-2005 08:24 AM