Top 100 Errors / Variations and the state of collections these cards prior to 1985

[swarmee]

BobC, I'd think the Magie error is a critically important one for the hobby. I'm guessing the 1989 Ripken FF and 1990 Thomas NNOF are definitely in the mix, along with the other ones affected in the same Topps printing sheet. Doyle is super-valuable, but maybe Nodgrass variation is not in the top 50.

What about cards made of people who were not licensed to be printed and had to be cut down or removed from sets, like 1959 Fleer "Ted Signs for '59" or 2006 Topps Alex Gordon cutout or 2007 Lavarr Arrington (FB) cutout.
[URL="https://www.comc.com/Cards,sr,=2006+alex+gordon,+297,ot,i100"]

Ted signs was pulled because Fleer didn't have permission to include Bucky Harris on cards, and is therefore a valued short print I would put on a Top 50 list.

1959 Fleer Ted Williams - [Base] #68 - Jan. 23, 1959- Ted Signs for 1959 [PSA 5 EX]
Courtesy of COMC.com

Also on the modern list should be the RC of Beltran, even though it wasn't corrected.

1995 Topps Traded & Rookies - [Base] #18T - Carlos Beltran (Juan LeBron pictured)
Courtesy of COMC.com

[BobC]

Originally Posted by swarmee

BobC, I'd think the Magie error is a critically important one for the hobby. I'm guessing the 1989 Ripken FF and 1990 Thomas NNOF are definitely in the mix, along with the other ones affected in the same Topps printing sheet. Doyle is super-valuable, but maybe Nodgrass variation is not in the top 50.

What about cards made of people who were not licensed to be printed and had to be cut down or removed from sets, like 1959 Fleer "Ted Signs for '59" or 2006 Topps Alex Gordon cutout or 2007 Lavarr Arrington (FB) cutout.
[URL="https://www.comc.com/Cards,sr,=2006+alex+gordon,+297,ot,i100"]

Ted signs was pulled because Fleer didn't have permission to include Bucky Harris on cards, and is therefore a valued short print I would put on a Top 50 list.

1959 Fleer Ted Williams - [Base] #68 - Jan. 23, 1959- Ted Signs for 1959 [PSA 5 EX]
Courtesy of COMC.com

Also on the modern list should be the RC of Beltran, even though it wasn't corrected.

1995 Topps Traded & Rookies - [Base] #18T - Carlos Beltran (Juan LeBron pictured)
Courtesy of COMC.com

All great points and questions, and why we need richtree to be a lot more informative as to exactly what he is looking for. There are literally thousands and thousands of errors and variations that have occurred in cards since they first started creating them back in the 1800s. Hopefully he'll be back and fill in some more of the details of exactly what he's looking for so he can get the help he's looking for. I'm interested in seeing what this list turns out to be.

If nothing else, it will be a start for a great debate among people as to what does or does not belong on such a list, or where different E&Vs get ranked on it. It is a great topic.

[swarmee]

1933 Goudey #106 Lajoie was intentionally not printed (skip-numbered). This outraged kids at the time, and Goudey printed up some the following year and sent them as gifts to kids who wrote the company angrily wondering where that card was. So I think that would be a historically significant Top 25 type error. Presuming it fits your definition of error.

[ocjack]

Probably should include the 1957 Topps Gene Baker (Bakep misprint). Before price guides, I searched dealer commons for at least 15+ years and only found 2 in all that time.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by ocjack

Probably should include the 1957 Topps Gene Baker (Bakep misprint). Before price guides, I searched dealer commons for at least 15+ years and only found 2 in all that time.

Ha, I also came across exactly two of the Bakep error cards in all my years of looking as well. Think I paid about $1.25 total for the two of them found at different times, both in about VG to VG+ condition.

There is also the Pancho Herrer error card from Topps in 1958, another long and well-known and listed error card. That one is even harder to find IMO, and I was never lucky enough to come across one while looking through dealer boxes of commons.

But again, is the OP even going that far back in time for his listing of E&Vs? Based on what he originally posted, he seems to be cutting off the dating of his list from about 1965 to the present, which to me would radically affect any listing of truly impactful error or variation cards in the hobby. IMO, quite honestly, aside from the Frank Thomas NNOF and Billy Ripken FF cards, i would think that the balance of any "most impactful" E&V cards on a top 25, or maybe even a top 50, list would predominately be made up of cards pretty much from prior to 1970. And I'm picking that cutoff date primarily due to the 1969 "white letter" cards which include Mantle's last playing year card as one of the most or more well-known and desired errors in the hobby.

And as some others have pointed out, cards like the 1933 Goudey Lajoie, is that really an error card? How do you call something an error that was intentionally done by the card's manufacturer. Or what about cards that mistakenly used a different person's image on some of them, like the W555 error cards that showed Irv Young as Cy Young? Of course, there is also the classic and very well-known E98 cards that are considered as depicting images of Irv instead of Cy, but unlike the W555 cards, there was not also a corrected version of Cy's cards actually showing him on an E98 card like there is for Cy on the W555s. So, does that make those E98 cards of Young actual error or variation cards after all? Couldn't they actually be considered just lousy renditions of Cy, like some E-90 or W9316 player images? Those E98 card images were never changed or corrected, so they technically aren't variations. But as for being an actual error, back then, such pre-war cards didn't always use actual photos, but instead an artist's rendition or representation of supposedly an actual photo. But because such artistic renditions weren't always so perfect (think some E-90 cards or God forbid, the W9316 cards) who is to then truly say what is an actual error or not for an image used if it doesn't look exactly like the intended person? And once again, more reasons we need the OP to chime in on exactly what he is looking for and what he considers as an eligible E&V for what is "his" list according to "his" definition of what a card E&V is.

I'm looking forward to seeing his Top 25 list, at least. I just hope he ends up sharing it with us, because I can't think of any reason he should hesitate to.

[Gorditadogg]

What an interesting concept for an article. I've never been an E&V collector myself so I don't have any helpful insights, but I am looking forward to seeing your work when it is published.

[JustinD]

I don't think withdrawn cards or UER's deserve a place.

I don't ever consider a UER an error, that's just bad editing. If it's corrected then okay.

As for important to history of the hobby I can't imagine a list without mostly modern in a top 10 as they created the most news and popularity for card chasing.

This will be Ripken FF, NNOF 1990 Thomas, 2006 Topps Gordon Versions, 1987 Donruss Opening Day Barry Bonds, 1977 Star Wars C-3PO "golden rod", 1989 Upper Deck Dale Murphy reverse neg.

As for vintage, I would think would be the two T206 biggies Doyle/Magie. I would put Magie a country mile ahead of Doyle as many collectors may not be familiar due to rarity. Followed by 1959 Pancho Herrer, 1948 Gene Hermansk, 1969 Topps Mickey Mantle White Letters, 1952 Topps Johnny Sain-Paige Bio and vice versa. These latter cards are reachable for a majority of collectors and not as untouchable as the T206, so new collector starters.

[Rich Klein]

I really don't consider the 1933 Goudey Lajoie an error, I consider that a marketing ploy

Just my opinion

Rich

[swarmee]

I wonder if the modern list has the Donruss patch mixup where Willie Mays Mets flannel jersey patches were inserted into Willie Nelson cards instead of the red bandanna pieces.

2008 Donruss Americana Celebrity Cuts - [Base] - Century Prime Materials #97.2 - Willie Nelson (Uncorrected Error: Willie Mays Relic) /50
Courtesy of COMC.com


2008 Donruss Americana Celebrity Cuts - [Base] - Century Prime Materials #96.2 - Willie Mays (Uncorrected Error: Willie Nelson Relic) /50 [Uncirculated]
Courtesy of COMC.com

Or the time where Magic Johnson signed the wrong manufactured jersey pieces (for Arizona State Sun Devils) and they ended up in a minor leaguer's baseball card.

2010 Donruss Elite Extra Edition - Collegiate Patches Signatures #JOS - Jordan Swagerty, Magic Johnson (Magic Johnson Autograph) /125
Courtesy of COMC.com

Or this one:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1541599

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by swarmee

BobC, I'd think the Magie error is a critically important one for the hobby. I'm guessing the 1989 Ripken FF and 1990 Thomas NNOF are definitely in the mix, along with the other ones affected in the same Topps printing sheet. Doyle is super-valuable, but maybe Nodgrass variation is not in the top 50.

What about cards made of people who were not licensed to be printed and had to be cut down or removed from sets, like 1959 Fleer "Ted Signs for '59" or 2006 Topps Alex Gordon cutout or 2007 Lavarr Arrington (FB) cutout.
[URL="https://www.comc.com/Cards,sr,=2006+alex+gordon,+297,ot,i100"]

Ted signs was pulled because Fleer didn't have permission to include Bucky Harris on cards, and is therefore a valued short print I would put on a Top 50 list.

1959 Fleer Ted Williams - [Base] #68 - Jan. 23, 1959- Ted Signs for 1959 [PSA 5 EX]
Courtesy of COMC.com

Also on the modern list should be the RC of Beltran, even though it wasn't corrected.

1995 Topps Traded & Rookies - [Base] #18T - Carlos Beltran (Juan LeBron pictured)
Courtesy of COMC.com

My list would pretty much parallel John 's list above. I would probably add a few more of the '52 Topps variations like the mid-series gray backs, House Yellow Tiger and Campos star/black star and partial border breaks. Any '52 Topps collector generally considers these variations as must haves

[richtree]

Hey all , thanks for the initial replies.

I think maybe posting a few of my top ones and what I consider impactful may be helpful.

I think some of you think my lack of # of posts may be looking for direction. I am not. The purpose of this was to brainstorm and discuss a topic I have passion about.

I really didn't collect prior to the year 1986 ( i was 8 years old then) and I know this board has some knowledge.

Ill post top 5 or 10 with a write up today after work

thanks

[Rich Klein]

One card, 15 years later, which has receded into the midst was the 2007 Topps Derek Jeter card with Mickey Mantle and George W. Bush in the background (they were later removed)

Topps did that to boost sales and it sure succeeded, in fact, it took years for 2007 Topps 1 product to end up at a price point where I could actually do what I used to like to do and buy a series 1 box each year. I'm not the only one who buys series 1 just as a tradition as it's the largest produced product ANY card manufacturer does in a given year.

But that helped spawn a ton of the modern variations

Rich

[steve B]

I started really collecting in late 77, and saw the Nozaki list sometime around early 78?
I knew about the errors and variations, but very few were a big deal with any lasting interest. Most of what's listed are good candidates for a list.
Mine? A shorter list focused mostly on the cards popular at the time.

Magie - one of the big deal cards, and one that was just never seen

The 74 Washington National League. - from my first full year collecting! and at least in my neighborhood a big deal. Didn't get many, and the rumors about them and other cards in the set- or not... Was there or wasn't there a checklist for Washington? (Nope)
And the card that never existed - and As manager card with a question mark instead of a photo supposedly because the manager was named a bit late. No idea where that came from, but I did look for that card for a few years.

79 Bump Wills - First real major variation in a few years, it was popular until

1981- Fleer Graig/Craig Nettles. That was THE card to get that year. Yes, Fleer had a bunch of other variations, as did Donruss and Topps. Some of the others especially the hands on the fleer made a lot of people think the variations were deliberate. (To me- The Topps ones were just their usual sloppiness, the Donruss were from them rushing the set and fixing mistakes later. And most of the Fleer were the same. The fingers I thought were deliberate and done to add to their sales.

82 Fleer - Littlefield reversed negative another "must get" variation, but at a time when the whole variations thing had mostly run out of gas.
82 Topps Blackless - not well understood at the time, also pretty popular in a time of fading interest.

89 Ripken F - Just difficult enough and just flashy/shocking enough to generate a lot of interest even outside of the hobby.

90 Topps - Thomas NNOF. Tough enough that it was years before I saw one in person, and thought it was just a printing flaw. (It is, but more interesting than I'd thought.)
90 Donruss- Not all that tough for the most part, but not always easy. Briefly popular and gave a bit of life to variation collecting.

After that.... and even before that, well into the junk wax era, where some most? sets were produced in multiple plants and like 91 Fleer had trivial variations on pretty much every card. That sort of knocked variation collecting back. Like how many cards does anyone really want where it's like
A - Whole ankle shows
B - almost all of ankle shows.
I really like variations, and even I don't chase that stuff (although I do chase stuff that's even worse, like 93UD back gloss differences, and general UD hologram changes.)

Honorable mention although they didn't have much effect at all - George C Miller having two different backs for each card.... shocking when I learned of it. They're uncommon enough, but they did two different small press runs? What the _

[richtree]

So here is an example of what I have been working on ...

I wanted to post here because, like I said earlier, I don't have all the knowledge I need on errors and variations prior to when I was collecting from 1986 until now.

1. Sherry Magie --- impact is that it is one of the big 4 and and anchor for the hobby for the next 1000 years

2. Billy Ripken -- impact is that during the height of errors, this card was known by people inside and outside the hobby. Even today people just want to hold one in their hands.

3. Frank Thomas NNOF -- the impact was for the first true rarity in the modern error place --- even today with millions of 1990 topps, its still hard to find...and worth more and more

4. Mickey Mantle White letters --- One of the greatest ever, from the yankees and representing the 69 white letters.... Without mantle having a white letter version , would people care as much for cards like this (2 color versions?)

5. Craig Nettles 1981 fleer spelling error --- the first year Topps now had lawsuits and rivals and errors and variations appeared as common place in the new "modern baseball card market"

6. 1957 Hank Aaron Uncorrected error -- Reverse Negative --- Not only is this of a baseball great, but I feel this card helped translate the stories of hitting cross handed and the aura of the home run king. A card that collectors wanted in their display case.

7. Barry Bonds opening Day -- In 1987, I remember people opening boxes and not knowing what Johnny Ray looked like --- it seemed so hard to find this card -- then Bonds became a legend --- today they are still rare and since their were not packs and only a boxed set --- it become the first error card that was truly from an odd place and hard to find --- and so happened to be one of the most controversial figure of all time.



Ill stop there even though I have my top 25 done like the above because I want to learn more about the cards I don't understand (pre-modern) and where they fit in ----- once the project is complete I will do a offical release of the list and writeups..

please feel free to contact me and any help like the above is greatly appreciated !!!

thanks

richtree
richtree@gmail.com

[Blackless Collector]

Prior to 1985 error/variations are 1982 Topps Blackless and the vintage Pancho herrera "Herrer" 1958 topps error.

[bocca001]

It might be useful to find some old Beckett price guides from the early 1980s. As a kid in the 1980s, we would look at the prices and notice some of what seemed like the crazy prices for error cards. Those cards were certainly well-known. The 1958 Pancho Herrer stands out as one that always had a relatively large $$. I'd also agree that the 1981 Fleer errors were a big deal, well known, and sought after. Especially the Nettles. Same goes for the 1969 White Letters (Mantle, McCovey) and the 1974 San Diego/Washington cards.

And I'd also say that as much as the 1989 Ripken error (and corrections) is/are well known and collected and should be high on the list, I find the 1989 Fleer Randy Johnson cards and corrections to be even more interesting. The rarity of the uncorrected version (I think there are two known?) and the sheer number of different corrections are mind boggling.

I'll also note here that I don't understand how the 1973 Al Kaline Band Aid card went so long without being a thing. It's hard not to notice once you know about it and it is a Hall of Famer.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by richtree

So here is an example of what I have been working on ...

I wanted to post here because, like I said earlier, I don't have all the knowledge I need on errors and variations prior to when I was collecting from 1986 until now.

1. Sherry Magie --- impact is that it is one of the big 4 and and anchor for the hobby for the next 1000 years

2. Billy Ripken -- impact is that during the height of errors, this card was known by people inside and outside the hobby. Even today people just want to hold one in their hands.

3. Frank Thomas NNOF -- the impact was for the first true rarity in the modern error place --- even today with millions of 1990 topps, its still hard to find...and worth more and more

4. Mickey Mantle White letters --- One of the greatest ever, from the yankees and representing the 69 white letters.... Without mantle having a white letter version , would people care as much for cards like this (2 color versions?)

5. Craig Nettles 1981 fleer spelling error --- the first year Topps now had lawsuits and rivals and errors and variations appeared as common place in the new "modern baseball card market"

6. 1957 Hank Aaron Uncorrected error -- Reverse Negative --- Not only is this of a baseball great, but I feel this card helped translate the stories of hitting cross handed and the aura of the home run king. A card that collectors wanted in their display case.

7. Barry Bonds opening Day -- In 1987, I remember people opening boxes and not knowing what Johnny Ray looked like --- it seemed so hard to find this card -- then Bonds became a legend --- today they are still rare and since their were not packs and only a boxed set --- it become the first error card that was truly from an odd place and hard to find --- and so happened to be one of the most controversial figure of all time.



Ill stop there even though I have my top 25 done like the above because I want to learn more about the cards I don't understand (pre-modern) and where they fit in ----- once the project is complete I will do a offical release of the list and writeups..

please feel free to contact me and any help like the above is greatly appreciated !!!

thanks

richtree
richtree@gmail.com

richtree,

Thanks for getting back to us and giving some ideas on what you're looking for then. The Magie/Magee error inclusion lets us know that you are not limiting the list to just the 60s/70s/80s - present. That is great to know.

The mention of the errors and such from the old Beckett's and other baseball price guides is a great place to start, but also remember that those were predominantly 50s and forward card guides. The old stuff, that old guys like a lot of us are into, go back way before then. Like with the Magie/Magee error. Of course, even the old Beckett guides would include some detail for the T206 and '33/'34 Goudey sets usually, and thus the Magie/Magee error would get posted for all to see in those as well. I think those old Beckett's may end up having a lot more influence on what is or isn't considered "impactful" to the hobby than many expect.

In fact, I still have to ask the question, what exactly is YOUR definition of what makes a particular E/V card "impactful" to the hobby? Or is it your goal to read and see what others consider as "impactful" and thus don't really have a specific definition of your own then? Just curious to see where you are coming from. Some may argue that impactful could/should refer to value, which would put E&Vs such as the Magie/Magee and Doyle N.Y. Nat'l cards at the top of such E&V lists. Similarly, '69 Mantle white-letter and '58 Aaron yellow team E&V cards would be pretty far up those lists as well. But then that would possibly remove or lower other well-known, but not nearly as valuable E&V cards as well. Just curious if you'd share some more info with us.

[richtree]

The reason I chose "impact" is that being rare or valuable had less meaning to me.

Its really more around "having meaning".


For example, the Ripken card is not rare, its not that valuable but it has more meaning than even some really great players on older, rare errors/variations.


That was my headspace. Like the Pancho card has a lot of meaning to me as well because it has been around so long, and thought of as a valuable piece to own, even the the randomness of the A missing seems no different that the 87-91 print defects......but the meaning separates it from them;..


Best I could come up with so far --- but trying to refine that in this process as well...

Lots of help here so far., its been very valuable to those that have replied....sorry I didn't thank you each individually so far...


rt