Perception of pre war baseball players vs other sports

Hankphenom · #1 01-06-2023, 09:34 AM

As others have said, baseball was in full flower then, football and basketball just getting started. Still, I'd say most football fans have heard of Red Grange, Bronco Nagurski, Jim Thorpe, Knute Rockne, perhaps a few others. Boxing was also in its prime, so I think the names Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, and Sugar Ray Robinson would be recognized by most sports fans today. But I couldn't name you a heavyweight or any other champion from the last 20 years. How many golfers wouldn't know Bobby Jones, Sam Snead, Ben Hogan, Babe Didrikson, Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer as greats from the past? As for Home Run Baker, that's not a good example. I'd guess Frank Thomas and the other guys could tell you that Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner, Jackie Robinson, Ted Williams, Joe Dimaggio, and many others were all-time baseball legends.

raulus · #2 01-06-2023, 10:08 AM

Certainly the historical popularity of the sport has a lot to do with it.

I also wonder whether rule changes have an impact, in that they fundamentally change the nature of the game. The idea being that sports with fewer changes enjoy more stability, and history seems more relatable.

Certainly changes like adding the 3-point line and the forward pass come to mind in basketball and football that fundamentally altered the game itself.

While baseball has its share of dramatic rule changes, many of them happened a loooooooong time ago, like being able to peg a runner with the ball, or a foul ball not counting as a strike.

It could be that the stasis of the game is not as important as its historical popularity. But I'm inclined to think that it could be a factor that comes into play.

BobbyStrawberry · #3 01-06-2023, 10:17 AM

I've never understood why Mikan gets the Rodney Dangerfield treatment. The guy singlehandedly changed the game

BillyCoxDodgers3B · #4 01-06-2023, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I've never understood why Mikan gets the Rodney Dangerfield treatment. The guy singlehandedly changed the game

I have no love or interest for the sport, but wasn't Mikan named the greatest athlete of the first half of the century at some point? I forget who bestowed the honor, but always questioned how this guy, in a then-fairly unpopular sport, would top a list of players from every professional sport in perhaps the greatest era of athleticism the world has ever known.

cgjackson222 · #5 01-06-2023, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

I have no love or interest for the sport, but wasn't Mikan named the greatest athlete of the first half of the century at some point? I forget who bestowed the honor, but always questioned how this guy, in a then-fairly unpopular sport, would top a list of players from every professional sport in perhaps the greatest era of athleticism the world has ever known.

I could see Jim Thorpe, but not Mikan.

BillyCoxDodgers3B · #6 01-06-2023, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I could see Jim Thorpe, but not Mikan.

I could see 100 or more over Mikan, but as I said, basketball is not my interest. And yes, Thorpe would make a great deal of sense. In fact, I'm certain he won a similar award from a different entity, thereby proving the true value of such things. Anyone can award anyone else anything.

steve B · #7 01-06-2023, 11:01 AM

I think that a big part of it is that while the way the game is played changes back and forth between small ball and home runs over all, the game doesn't really change all that much. How many years were there when hitting 300 was unusual? The only reason for fluctuations in stuff line stolen bases and some other stuff is in how the game is played. Few players are good enough to be allowed to operate outside the sense of "this is how the game is played"
Ruth, Rickey Henderson, Cobb, Ted Williams, could do their own thing because nobody sane would want them to not play their way.

But someone who would be stealing 30-40 bases in a running era might only do 10 -20 in a slugging era.

In other sports, the way the game is played leads to huge changes in individual production.

Fran Tarkenton was great, but because of how the game was played then vs now means you look at his stats and in todays game they appear very average. There are guys being let go that have similar stats to his best year.
Many fans don't look at the over all game, just the raw numbers.
Would guys like Tarkenton and Staubach or the lower passing numbers but more durable/verstaile players from farther back be great today? I think so.

Another change, look at something simple like thousand yard rushers. in 2000, there were more than enough to make a nice set of inserts. 23 of them. 2021? Only 7. I think that's from more platooning and specialization, plus teams getting smarter about not trying to let players get run down from overwork.
But there were only 2 in 1970, and three in 1980 so the changes in how the game is played over even a few decades have made for wildly differing stats.
I figure the big boost around 2000 was the passing game being used more opening things up for better running backs, plus maybe more plays working towards the outside.

Similar things I think are in play with Basketball and hockey.
Like the 92 olympic team was amazing basketball, but even by 96 it became a showcase for "stars" one of whom missed three straight set up tries at a dunk in a blowout of China. The NBA has sort of gone the same way.
Some set pieces to show off, a bunch of three pointers, and a bit of pretty basic stuff in between.

Hockey has been more stable, but the changes have been more stuff like pre or post goalie mask, non-wood sticks, the arrival of European players who play a different and at times less physical game than the NHL was in the 70's.

Soccer, who knows? The way it's played internationally, the teams can move leagues and level of leagues and it seems like there's no set season....

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