Perception of pre war baseball players vs other sports

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by rats60

Definitely not preintegration.

True, the major leagues were sadly missing out on a lot of great black talent, but on the other hand, baseball was THE game for all kids back then, and MLB got the cream of a much larger white crop. I've always thought--and Goose Goslin says this on the "Glory of Their Times" audio--that the big stars then would also be great today, but because of better conditioning, training, travel conditions, etc., the average ballplayer of yesteryear wouldn't be able to compete with those of today.

[packs]

I’ve always felt like the average pre-war player was most likely much better than the average player today. Today the pool of major leaguers is only made up of those who decide to play baseball. Way less of the population is playing than during pre-war days. If you were a player on any pre-war team you beat out almost ever of age male in the country for your spot. Today you only compete against of a tiny percentage of the people you would have in 1910.

[Snapolit1]

It's a fun question to debate and no right answer of course.

I would argue that professional baseball players today are much better baseball players and far far (far) better athletes than prewar players, with limited exceptions. Guys today are cultivated for MLB careers sometimes as early as 12 years old.

Gehrig is always touted as looking like a football player body. Was consider huuuuuuge for his time. Look at all those muscles. What a monster. And he was a great raw athlete. But he was 6 feet tall 200 pounds. Just a little bigger than Francisco Lindor today. Guys today and so ripped and so strong and (most of them) so fast. Except in rare case would be no comparison on physicality and skills.

I'd argue that a fringe major leaguer today -- let's say Tomas Nido on my Mets -- probably has hitting and fielding skills better than 95% of the catchers of the prewar era.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I'd argue that a fringe major leaguer today -- let's say Tomas Nido on my Mets -- probably has hitting and fielding skills better than 95% of the catchers of the prewar era.

You may be right. Game became easier for his generation.

I’m guessing Nido has the advantages of better footwear, padding, helmets, gloves, uniforms…. How about the ball…is it easier to see now? Easier to judge fielding it now? It’s round now, it’s clean now. How about the field? Now they are immaculate, how about 1923? Weeds, divots, bald spots…. No Astroturf for sure.

[Snapolit1]

All very true. Guys today live a pampered existence that could not have been imagined by prewar players. How about Negro league players driving all night, sleeping on a bus, and then playing two game the following day.

Originally Posted by nwobhm

You may be right. Game became easier for his generation.

I’m guessing Nido has the advantages of better footwear, padding, helmets, gloves, uniforms…. How about the ball…is it easier to see now? Easier to judge fielding it now? It’s round now, it’s clean now. How about the field? Now they are immaculate, how about 1923? Weeds, divots, bald spots…. No Astroturf for sure.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

All very true. Guys today live a pampered existence that could not have been imagined by prewar players. How about Negro league players driving all night, sleeping on a bus, and then playing two game the following day.

I wasn’t thinking pampered…. More like sterile.

Ever see a pool hustler work? They play with house cues on bad tables and still hustle well. Point being… great players adapt to their environment.

Modern players have adapted to their sterile environment. Not a good thing IMHO.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

I wasn’t thinking pampered…. More like sterile.

Ever see a pool hustler work? They play with house cues on bad tables and still hustle well. Point being… great players adapt to their environment.

Modern players have adapted to their sterile environment. Not a good thing IMHO.

Yes, I sure have. Not someone big time though.

One of the places I hung out at in college was part arcade part pool hall. The pool guys always came across as a bit tough, and money was bet for sure.

My friend and I played occasionally. The guys would always try to get us to play for small stakes, but eventually accepted that we knew the drill and weren't up for losing money.

Until one night one of them asked for a free game, it was slow and he wanted practice against someone other than the other good players.
Ok, but only on my favorite table....
First ball I got in followed a very crooked path and he had a wtf expression.
Oh yeah, my favorite table was the worst one I'd ever played on. Multiple major cracks under the felt, and one section angled down to the hole. I loved it because I was pretty bad at pool, but liked the really weird way that one played.
His friends gave him a hard time for a couple weeks over losing to one of the worst pool players they'd seen.

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

You may be right. Game became easier for his generation.

I’m guessing Nido has the advantages of better footwear, padding, helmets, gloves, uniforms…. How about the ball…is it easier to see now? Easier to judge fielding it now? It’s round now, it’s clean now. How about the field? Now they are immaculate, how about 1923? Weeds, divots, bald spots…. No Astroturf for sure.

No brush back pitches or body armor. How about no AC and either sleeping on the fire escape of sleeping in wet sheets they soaked in water during the summer in St. Louis. I remember my mother saying they put their beds out in the yard the one year during the dust bowl because it was to miserable to sleep in the house. Of course today's players are better but I say put today's players in those conditions back then and yesterday's players in today's conditions and a great player would be a great player.

[puckpaul]

Originally Posted by jakebeckleyoldeagleeye

No brush back pitches or body armor. How about no AC and either sleeping on the fire escape of sleeping in wet sheets they soaked in water during the summer in St. Louis. I remember my mother saying they put their beds out in the yard the one year during the dust bowl because it was to miserable to sleep in the house. Of course today's players are better but I say put today's players in those conditions back then and yesterday's players in today's conditions and a great player would be a great player.

Totally agree with this. Anyone who was a great athlete relative to their peers then would be a great athlete now under the new conditions.

[steve B]

I'm not really buying the bit about how much older the sport is.

There's a sport that goes back nearly as far, and in an organized way, almost exactly as far. And in the 1920's -30's (and for some even farther) it often paid much better than baseball. Beginners typically got $100 a day and stars between 500 and 1000 a day. Plus in event prizes. In the late 1890's and early 1900s


That's six day bike racing.
Pro motor pacers in europe often made even more. Although many moved into doing air shows after a disaater in 1909, as the appearance money was even better and you didn't actually have to fly.


Both faded here in the late 30's and into the war, and are now gone in the US and have been for a long time.

The guy I met who did a documentary said nearly all the old racers he spoke with were willing to sit down for hours, just glad that anyone remembered and wanted to hear their stories - Sometimes even their family hadn't bothered.


I think in many ways it's more about the popularity of the sport.
College football was a much bigger deal than pro football, was at least well into the 60's and in some ways still is.

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

True, the major leagues were sadly missing out on a lot of great black talent, but on the other hand, baseball was THE game for all kids back then, and MLB got the cream of a much larger white crop. I've always thought--and Goose Goslin says this on the "Glory of Their Times" audio--that the big stars then would also be great today, but because of better conditioning, training, travel conditions, etc., the average ballplayer of yesteryear wouldn't be able to compete with those of today.

Put today's players back in those times. I can't see Mike Trout working in a coal mine in the off season.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jakebeckleyoldeagleeye

Put today's players back in those times. I can't see Mike Trout working in a coal mine in the off season.

Of course not, but 20 of the other guys on his team would have been working instead of spending the offseason working out, focusing on nutrition, hitting the batting cage, etc. Not sure what your point is in response to my post. Today's players are just so much bigger, stronger, well trained and coached year round, etc., the players of old wouldn't stand a chance of competing with them, IMO.

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Of course not, but 20 of the other guys on his team would have been working instead of spending the offseason working out, focusing on nutrition, hitting the batting cage, etc. Not sure what your point is in response to my post. Today's players are just so much bigger, stronger, well trained and coached year round, etc., the players of old wouldn't stand a chance of competing with them, IMO.

What's your point? Only an idiot would think yesterday's players could compete with todays players but let's have Trout born in 1915 and see how he would do during the depression era with no advantages because they weren't known. By the way Mike also go off for 4 years and fight in WW 2.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jakebeckleyoldeagleeye

What's your point? Only an idiot would think yesterday's players could compete with todays players but let's have Trout born in 1915 and see how he would do during the depression era with no advantages because they weren't known. By the way Mike also go off for 4 years and fight in WW 2.

Are you saying you think he wouldn't do well?

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Are you saying you think he wouldn't do well?

Yes till they put one in his ear and he would wind up with plate in his head like Don Zimmer.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jakebeckleyoldeagleeye

Yes till they put one in his ear and he would wind up with plate in his head like Don Zimmer.

Why would you think he wouldn't learn to deal with that like the old-timers did?