Current HOF election results

z28jd · #1 01-09-2023, 08:54 PM

It looks like right now that no one will make it because Helton and Rolen aren't picking up enough new votes to make up their difference from last year. Check the percentage of ballots counted vs the number of new votes from last year and what they need. Neither is trending high enough.

That's a shame for Rolen, because his combined defense/offense makes him a better than some first ballot HOF'ers.

I could care less about Helton making it. I have no respect for any drunken drivers, especially not habitual offenders like him. Cooperstown only has one traffic light, so if he does eventually make it, be careful of the road if you go to his ceremony.

G1911 · #2 01-09-2023, 08:57 PM

By the time we�re done keeping out and kicking out everyone who has done something negative or somebody doesn�t like because they don�t suit X narrative, we will have a plaque of Christy Mathewson in an otherwise empty building.

FrankWakefield · #3 01-09-2023, 09:04 PM

So let's then realize that Matty will get lonesome, and we restore about 40-50 of the best of the others.

Yoda · #4 01-10-2023, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

So let's then realize that Matty will get lonesome, and we restore about 40-50 of the best of the others.

Let's let Lou Gehrig keep Matty company, so he doesn't get too lonely in that big Hall.

JollyElm · #5 01-09-2023, 09:10 PM

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

butchie_t · #6 01-09-2023, 09:19 PM

Agree. I vote for both Todd and Scott. Screw that war junk.

I STILL believe Todd was screwed out of ROY just because the voters were enamored with Kerry Wood at the time. Ugh….. I’ll take a HOF selection for a nice compensation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

Gorditadogg · #7 01-09-2023, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

Baseball has been about stats for oh, about 150 years now, and WAR is one of the best.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

nat · #8 01-09-2023, 10:14 PM

WAR is just a way to measure what a player did, in a way that helps you answer certain sorts of questions. It's a tool. Like any tool, it's useful for some things, and not for others.

For what it's worth, Rolen measures up very well by WAR. On the career list he's one spot above Ed Delahanty and exactly tied with Carlos Beltran. Which also feels about right to me.

The thing that bothers me about this years' voting is the Billy Wagner love. Yes, he struck out a lot of guys, but in his entire career he pitched only 903 innings. Of course, that's because he was a relief pitcher, but it's going to be very hard to be as valuable to your team as a HOF-level starting pitcher if you're only pitching 70 innings a year.

Tabe · #9 01-10-2023, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nat

The thing that bothers me about this years' voting is the Billy Wagner love. Yes, he struck out a lot of guys, but in his entire career he pitched only 903 innings. Of course, that's because he was a relief pitcher, but it's going to be very hard to be as valuable to your team as a HOF-level starting pitcher if you're only pitching 70 innings a year.

He's the best closer not named Mariano Rivera. I don't like closers in the Hall but it's a real position (now) and Wagner was absolutely elite at it for 15 years.

jayshum · #10 01-10-2023, 05:44 AM

Since there is usually a drop off between the ballots made public before the official results are announced and the ones made public later or never made public, it looks like it will be very close for Rolen and Helton. My guess is that Helton doesn't make it this year, and Rolen will either get in or miss by a few votes.

z28jd · #11 01-10-2023, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

Since there is usually a drop off between the ballots made public before the official results are announced and the ones made public later or never made public, it looks like it will be very close for Rolen and Helton. My guess is that Helton doesn't make it this year, and Rolen will either get in or miss by a few votes.

Rolen missed by 47 votes last year. While he is trending well with the few first-time voters, he has only picked up eight votes from people who didn't vote for him last year, with 35.8% of the votes accounted for right now. That pace is going to need to get a lot higher soon, otherwise we are looking at him missing by about 20-25 votes.

As I said, the first-time voters help, but they also add to the amount of votes he needs to get in, so their help is minimal. He needs more of the people who don't release their ballots online to switch to him. He only received 34% of the votes with the people who didn't release their ballots at all last year, and that group is about 20% of the voters. Public voters had him at 69%, though it also went down with the people who waited to release their ballots until after the results are announced.

toppcat · #12 01-10-2023, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

He's the best closer not named Mariano Rivera. I don't like closers in the Hall but it's a real position (now) and Wagner was absolutely elite at it for 15 years.

Except in the playoffs, which kills him for me. 10.03 ERA in the biggest games of his career and a WHIP close to 2. He melted down in practically every playoff series he was ever in.

tod41 · #13 01-12-2023, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toppcat

Except in the playoffs, which kills him for me. 10.03 ERA in the biggest games of his career and a WHIP close to 2. He melted down in practically every playoff series he was ever in.

He is also melted down in big regular season games as well.

tod41 · #14 01-12-2023, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

He's the best closer not named Mariano Rivera. I don't like closers in the Hall but it's a real position (now) and Wagner was absolutely elite at it for 15 years.

Guess you never watched Wagner in the postseason.

Tabe · #15 01-12-2023, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tod41

Guess you never watched Wagner in the postseason.

Yep, his 11 whole innings of postseason play were pretty awful. Doesn't change his regular season dominance.

clydepepper · #16 01-16-2023, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

He's the best closer not named Mariano Rivera. I don't like closers in the Hall but it's a real position (now) and Wagner was absolutely elite at it for 15 years.

+1

- of course, I have a definite bias toward lefties, plus he finished with the Braves!

.

jingram058 · #17 01-10-2023, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

A big +1 and Amen!

jingram058 · #18 01-10-2023, 08:00 AM

Is it just me? The people we're talking about here SEEM mighty weak to be talking about HOF. Unless I'm missing something, these people were good ballplayers. Is that what the HOF is, the Hall of Good? Do you really see these guys up there with Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.?

packs · #19 01-10-2023, 08:04 AM

I don't think Scott Rolen is a weak HOFer. He's ranked as the 10th best third baseman of all time and the 9 guys ahead of him are all in the HOF (with Beltre being a lock).

darwinbulldog · #20 01-10-2023, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Is that what the HOF is, the Hall of Good? Do you really see these guys up there with Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.?

Yes. Do you really not see these guys up there with the likes of Lindstrom, Kell, Marquard, Maranville, Aparicio, Ferrell, et al.?

jingram058 · #21 01-10-2023, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Yes. Do you really not see these guys up there with the likes of Lindstrom, Kell, Marquard, Maranville, Aparicio, Ferrell, et al.?

Well, that's a hard one, because all I know of the fellows you mentioned is what I have read. And depending on what you read, they come off sounding better than their peers. It wasn't me who elected them. I saw Rolen, Wagner, Jones, et al, and to me they aren't HOFers, not even close, and same goes for Biggio, Morris, Baines, etc., already in. Good, but not HOF. To me. If you see things differently that's fine. Obviously, sooner or later someone will be going in. So be it.

packs · #22 01-10-2023, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Well, that's a hard one, because all I know of the fellows you mentioned is what I have read. And depending on what you read, they come off sounding better than their peers. It wasn't me who elected them. I saw Rolen, Wagner, Jones, et al, and to me they aren't HOFers, not even close, and same goes for Biggio, Morris, Baines, etc., already in. Good, but not HOF. To me. If you see things differently that's fine. Obviously, sooner or later someone will be going in. So be it.

What do you mean not even close though? Who was better than Rolen in his time? I would say nobody. What else does a third baseman have to do to get into the Hall? He won 8 gold gloves, he won a title, and he's 10th all time in WAR at the position.

There are 9 guys ahead of him, one of which is Paul Molitor, who played less than 800 games at the position. All 9 players ahead of him are in the HOF or in the case of Beltre, are a lock to get in.

How is he not even close? Even the guy directly behind him is in the HOF (Edgar Martinez).

glynparson · #23 01-14-2023, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Well, that's a hard one, because all I know of the fellows you mentioned is what I have read. And depending on what you read, they come off sounding better than their peers. It wasn't me who elected them. I saw Rolen, Wagner, Jones, et al, and to me they aren't HOFers, not even close, and same goes for Biggio, Morris, Baines, etc., already in. Good, but not HOF. To me. If you see things differently that's fine. Obviously, sooner or later someone will be going in. So be it.

This is just freaking stupid.

Peter_Spaeth · #24 01-10-2023, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Is it just me? The people we're talking about here SEEM mighty weak to be talking about HOF. Unless I'm missing something, these people were good ballplayers. Is that what the HOF is, the Hall of Good? Do you really see these guys up there with Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.?

The HOF has never been limited to truly elite, all time starting lineup type players. So that's a false comparison.

lampertb · #25 01-10-2023, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The HOF has never been limited to truly elite, all time starting lineup type players. So that's a false comparison.

True. When the Hall opened, after the first few inaugural classes, they let in a whole mess of "lesser-quality" guys simply to fill the place. I guess nobody was going to buy tickets to a museum with only 12 incomparables in it.

the-illini · #26 01-10-2023, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lampertb

True. When the Hall opened, after the first few inaugural classes, they let in a whole mess of "lesser-quality" guys simply to fill the place. I guess nobody was going to buy tickets to a museum with only 12 incomparables in it.

And don't forget the Frank Frisch-led veterans committee, which gave us Chick Hafey, Jesse Haines, Dave Bancroft, Ross Youngs, Waite Hoyt, Harry Hooper, Rube Marquard, Earle Combs and High Pockets Kelly.

Exhibitman · #27 01-10-2023, 10:57 AM

WAR, what is it good for?

Sorry, I had to...

Peter_Spaeth · #28 01-10-2023, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

WAR, what is it good for?

Sorry, I had to...

Been said many times, but always funny, now I have Edwin Starr on the mental audio. Perhaps one of the worst songs of all time, but great in its awfulness. Good god, y'all!!

perezfan · #29 01-10-2023, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

WAR, what is it good for?

Sorry, I had to...

Someone's gotta give that a +1. (Edit... Of course Peter beat me to it.)

As for Rolen, I see him as borderline. And I do believe Pie Traynor was more highly regarded (in his time) than Rolen ever was. Excellent 3rd Baseman though.

Vintagedeputy · #30 01-10-2023, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z28jd

I could care less about Helton making it. I have no respect for any drunken drivers, especially not habitual offenders like him. Cooperstown only has one traffic light, so if he does eventually make it, be careful of the road if you go to his ceremony.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I hope that the voters keep only his on-field activities in mind when voting. No one is perfect and what happens off the field should have zero effect on HOF voting. Its not the "Perfect Human Being" HOF.

Chris-Counts · #31 01-10-2023, 11:49 AM

By the numbers and compared those already inducted, Scott Rolen is clearly a Hall of Famer. It's not even close. Pie Traynor was once considered the greatest third baseman who ever lived. So was Jimmy Collins. Would you really rather have either one of those guys on your team instead of Rolen?

Many fans simply misunderstand what a Hall of Fame third baseman looks like. There are few third sackers history who had a great glove to go along with hitting for power and average, like Rolen. As a result, there are far fewer third baseman inducted in Cooperstown than any other position, including executives who never played the game (17 third baseman vs. 40 executives). I see this as an indictment that the Hall of Fame is as much of a good old boys club as it is an institution that truly honors the best who ever played the game.

sreader3 · #32 01-12-2023, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z28jd

I could care less about Helton making it. I have no respect for any drunken drivers, especially not habitual offenders like him. Cooperstown only has one traffic light, so if he does eventually make it, be careful of the road if you go to his ceremony.

Seems pretty harsh to me.

So you are calling for the removal of Carlton Fisk, Tony LaRussa and other HOFers who have been convicted of DUIs?

Helton was the best fielding first baseman I ever saw. His hitting reflexes were incredible. Also a very nice man, although an introvert.

Edited to add:

Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson and Michael Phelps should all be removed from their respective Hall of Fames under the proposed standard.

Jim65 · #33 01-13-2023, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sreader3

Seems pretty harsh to me.

So you are calling for the removal of Carlton Fisk, Tony LaRussa and other HOFers who have been convicted of DUIs?

Helton was the best fielding first baseman I ever saw. His hitting reflexes were incredible. Also a very nice man, although an introvert.

Edited to add:

Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson and Michael Phelps should all be removed from their respective Hall of Fames under the proposed standard.

He said he has no respect for drunk drivers, no where did he say Helton isn't a HOFer or that others should be removed from the HOF.

You might feel Helton is a nice man but the fact is that he's a convicted criminal who's lucky he never killed anyone.

I feel that should have no bearing on his HOF voting, since the HOF is already full of drug smugglers, wife beaters, racists, cheaters, etc.

1952boyntoncollector · #34 01-16-2023, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sreader3

Seems pretty harsh to me.

So you are calling for the removal of Carlton Fisk, Tony LaRussa and other HOFers who have been convicted of DUIs?

Helton was the best fielding first baseman I ever saw. His hitting reflexes were incredible. Also a very nice man, although an introvert.

Edited to add:

Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson and Michael Phelps should all be removed from their respective Hall of Fames under the proposed standard.

well , what if DUI ended up killing someone..if still ok to be in HOF than i agree

but if you dont agree then a hypocrit...because when DUI you cant control what will happen...shouldnt get credit for failing in the attempt...if ok with DUI and killing someone and going to Hall than fine..

G1911 · #35 01-16-2023, 07:13 PM

What percent of the adult population have never in their life even once driven while over the legal alcohol limit or under the influence of any drugs? I�d be shocked if the number was over 40%.

The Hall of Fame honors baseball career achievement, not everybody�s pet crusade. We�ve gone from game rigging and steroid cheating to arguing to keep out anyone who dissents with anything or someone people don�t even know and just don�t like.

1952boyntoncollector · #36 01-16-2023, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

What percent of the adult population have never in their life even once driven while over the legal alcohol limit or under the influence of any drugs? I’d be shocked if the number was over 40%.

The Hall of Fame honors baseball career achievement, not everybody’s pet crusade. We’ve gone from game rigging and steroid cheating to arguing to keep out anyone who dissents with anything or someone people don’t even know and just don’t like.

The 'everyone else is doing it' defense. If kill someone with DUI, i guess can try that as a defense and see how that works out. Afterall any of those 40% could of also killed someone when over the legal limit or under the influence of drugs as well.

G1911 · #37 01-16-2023, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The 'everyone else is doing it' defense. If kill someone with DUI, i guess can try that as a defense and see how that works out. Afterall any of those 40% could of also killed someone when over the legal limit or under the influence of drugs as well.

I didn't say it was good. It is common. Personally, I am more aligned with the people against. I am an anti-drug teetotaler, but I don't think my personal views on the right way to live life have any bearing whatsoever on the Baseball Hall of Fame. I strongly doubt anyone here is so morally pure that they've never done anything negative.

I do not see why many want to turn every hall debate into pearl clutching moral or political crusades over things half the population is guilty of. It seems obvious that the Hall of Fame is not supposed to be about everybody's personal narrative, but is about actual baseball performance.

1952boyntoncollector · #38 01-16-2023, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I didn't say it was good. It is common. Personally, I am more aligned with the people against. I am an anti-drug teetotaler, but I don't think my personal views on the right way to live life have any bearing whatsoever on the Baseball Hall of Fame. I strongly doubt anyone here is so morally pure that they've never done anything negative.

I do not see why many want to turn every hall debate into pearl clutching moral or political crusades over things half the population is guilty of. It seems obvious that the Hall of Fame is not supposed to be about everybody's personal narrative, but is about actual baseball performance.

right i didnt say you dont go to the hall of fame..it is what it is

DUI whether killing someone or regular DUI that could of killed someone , both can be in the HOF...thats fine....they are the same....its fine that you can be in the HOF for any of those...... .I never said you cant still be in the HOF...i just stated that you cant split it and say DUI killed someone and not get in but DUI and lucky you didnt kill somone get in HOF would be silly...its do either of those crimes and not in HOF or be in HOF....

Really not relevant the 'everyone else is doing it' is also my point...doesnt matter if nobody else is doing it....

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