For 3500, which Jackie would be your one/only?

[packs]

Originally Posted by BobC

And exactly why I said earlier that not everyone is going to consider a Bond Bread card as a "true" card.

Remember all the years Beckett showed Ruth's rookie card as being his '33 Goudey cards? There actually is a big difference between being a player's first ever issue, and their first, nationally recognized and distributed "true" card.

I've always kind of figured the main reason behind the '48 Sports Thrills set not being always so well like and appreciated is because it includes many retired, older players, and not just all current players, and the various historically significant times and events in the history of baseball that they were part of. So, in that respect at least, it is not like a typical Bowman, Topps, or Goudey set of baseball cards of then all (or mostly all) current players. In this case though, Swell lucked out and produced this set right after Robinson entered the majors with the Dodgers, and they made sure to include Jackie's debut as part of this set. Name another sports card set or issue that preceded the '48 Sports Thrills cards that mentions and documents Jackie's debut and historical achievement. To me, that adds some significance to this particular card as well.

The Bond Bread portrait does those things and was released a full year earlier in 1947. It was available in every American city that had a baseball team at the time.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by packs

The Bond Bread portrait does those things and was released a full year earlier in 1947. It was available in every American city that had a baseball team at the time.

Then answer this question.

If they were so well known and widely distributed, why are they so unbelievably rare and seemingly hard to find today?

And if you can't logically, sensically, and factually answer that question, then maybe the answer is that they weren't as widely distributed and as readily available as you may think and claim. And that includes the possibility that these first Bond Bread cards may have been available for only a very limited time as well.

Everyone knew Robinson was the first ever Negro player in the majors, so this initial card of his would be historic, and everyone would have known it. And maybe if not as highly collected and desired among white people back then, definitely something black people would have grabbed and held onto, no? Sorry, that is a second question, but it goes right back to my first one and why there aren't more of these cards still around then if it was so historically important, and supposedly so readily available everywhere to everyone.

[packs]

Originally Posted by BobC

Then answer this question.

If they were so well known and widely distributed, why are they so unbelievably rare and seemingly hard to find today?

And if you can't logically, sensically, and factually answer that question, then maybe the answer is that they weren't as widely distributed and as readily available as you may think and claim. And that includes the possibility that these first Bond Bread cards may have been available for only a very limited time as well.

Everyone knew Robinson was the first ever Negro player in the majors, so this initial card of his would be historic, and everyone would have known it. And maybe if not as highly collected and desired among white people back then, definitely something black people would have grabbed and held onto, no? Sorry, that is a second question, but it goes right back to my first one and why there aren't more of these cards still around then if it was so historically important, and supposedly so readily available everywhere to everyone.

Here's a nice article on the card and set from Beckett: https://www.beckett.com/news/1947-ja...on-bond-bread/

[BobC]

Originally Posted by packs

Here's a nice article on the card and set from Beckett: https://www.beckett.com/news/1947-ja...on-bond-bread/

I had actually already seen and read that very article before posting my response and question to you, just to make sure I wasn't missing, forgetting, or otherwise unaware of some other circumstances or facts surrounding the set. Of course that card set is important, and exactly why it would be expected that if it had been widely issued, and not more of a regional or other extremely limited type of issue, that one would expect there would be a heck of a lot more of them out there and still around today. And my original reason for researching that particular article was to do a double check before making an earlier post and statement I had had made about how the '48 Sports Thrills card was the first sports card to my knowledge to actually refer to Jackie's historic MLB debut. Though the back of one of his Bond Bread cards does go into a history of Jackie's accomplishments, it still doesn't mention him being the first ever Black MLB player in history. And I'm also well aware and don't disagree at all with you that the Bond Bread items first came out in '47, the year before any other card issues with Robinson in them. That was never the question or issue, just that some people may not view it as a "true" card issue, and/or maybe more as a limited/regional type issue.

Still, that article doesn't answer my question at all, it actually just does the opposite, and was one of the main things I came across that actually prompted me to then ask you the question I did in the first place. Which you still haven't answered by the way!

[Yoda]

Earlier in the week, a Jackie '47 Bond Bread sold for about $5,500 on Probstein. I know because I was the underbidder and got sniped. I am of the
opinion that is his true RC.

[packs]

I can’t explain why more people didn’t save a baseball card. The article shows advertisements for the portrait card in newspapers and notes Robinson’s status as a national spokesman.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by packs

I can’t explain why more people didn’t save a baseball card. The article shows advertisements for the portrait card in newspapers and notes Robinson’s status as a national spokesman.

Great, were those advertisements over weeks, months, or even longer? Or is it possible it was just a one-time ad, in one particular newspaper, in one particular city? Was Homogenized Bond Bread sold in places other than major league cities that had MLB teams? Were these cards also available across entire states and all smaller cities and rural areas as well? That article you pointed to mentioned the portrait cards as possibly a type of promo card handed out at certain stores. Well if so, how many locations, how many cards, and for how long?

I put forth what would seem to be a very sensical and logical argument that even if white kids didn't care much for Robinson cards, you would think that in the predominantly black communities/areas they would have been like gold, wouldn't you? And I could see some black adults, not just black kids, possibly wanting and cherishing these cards of the first ever black MLB player as well. Now that makes some possible logical sense, doesn't it?

So why aren't there many, many more of these cards still out there? Could it possibly be that Bond Bread didn't get distributed as much in areas that had predominantly large black populations? Back then in 1947, American communities were nowhere near as integrated as they are today, and minorities tended to live together in somewhat tight-knit communities. So, could another possibility be that Bond Bread wasn't available as much in those black communities back then after all? Or maybe it was the other way around, and these were targeted sales aimed more at the black communities, and maybe therefore not as available in the white communities after all. Those ads in the article you posted clearly showed black people in them, and let's be totally honest and face reality, back in 1947 ads showing all black people in them would most likely not be used to advertise any sales in predominantly white communities. And either way, if so, it could definitely be a logical argument/reason there are maybe not as many of those cards still around today, and also a possible reason/proof that maybe these Bond Bread cards were possibly at least somewhat limited in their distribution after all. Anyone put it beyond the Bond Bread company to purposely limit Robinson cards to being inserted/available in their bread being sold mostly in black communities, or given away as promos at predominantly black stores, at least initially to see how well the rest of the country accepted/rejected Robinson? And if these cards were predominantly distributed in black communities, and not white communities, the much smaller black population would be a very logical reason that not many of these cards survived to today after all, as the black population made up only a small percentage of the overall U.S. population in 1947.

I'm not able to offer any definitive proof either way, merely putting forth some logical thinking and arguments as to possibles reasons these may not have been as widely distributed as some claim. All you've done is basically just tell me you don't know! No logic, no sense, no anything other than you can't come up with a possible reason these may not have been a regional or limited issue. Other than you found a Beckett article showing a single ad, and a single newspaper article in a predominantly black paper, denoting Robinson a national spokesman. And that is your sole proof and argument as to why you think this Bond Bread set was not possibly a regional or limited issue, and with no other logical arguments or possible explanations as to why so few of these Jackie cards still exist today then? Heck, in the article itself it even states that though Robinson was heading up a national campaign, it was only being advertised in predominantly black newspapers, in black communities that accounted for what, about 10%-15% of the total U.S. population back then. If that is the case, and that is where these '47 Robinson Bond Bread cards were at least initially targeted for distribution, how would that not possibly be a limited release?

[CharleyBrown]

Bob,

I have provided research on this very forum which indicates the number of portrait BB cards distributed in 1947.That research has been used by all the major auction houses, and it appears Beckett as well. To call that card a limited release or a regional release is to ignore that research to fit a narrative.

The set of 13 is a true card set. Its distribution has been documented. Of the 13, the portrait was released first and constitutes his true RC. Following the Portrait and prior to the release of the Swell Sport Thrills set, 6 more Bond Bread cards were distributed, as was the Kneeling Old Gold card (Sept 47 release). None of those take away from the value or significance of the Swell Sport Thrills, which is a beautiful card that deserves its increase in price.

Originally Posted by BobC

I had actually already seen and read that very article before posting my response and question to you, just to make sure I wasn't missing, forgetting, or otherwise unaware of some other circumstances or facts surrounding the set. Of course that card set is important, and exactly why it would be expected that if it had been widely issued, and not more of a regional or other extremely limited type of issue, that one would expect there would be a heck of a lot more of them out there and still around today. And my original reason for researching that particular article was to do a double check before making an earlier post and statement I had had made about how the '48 Sports Thrills card was the first sports card to my knowledge to actually refer to Jackie's historic MLB debut. Though the back of one of his Bond Bread cards does go into a history of Jackie's accomplishments, it still doesn't mention him being the first ever Black MLB player in history. And I'm also well aware and don't disagree at all with you that the Bond Bread items first came out in '47, the year before any other card issues with Robinson in them. That was never the question or issue, just that some people may not view it as a "true" card issue, and/or maybe more as a limited/regional type issue.

Still, that article doesn't answer my question at all, it actually just does the opposite, and was one of the main things I came across that actually prompted me to then ask you the question I did in the first place. Which you still haven't answered by the way!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by CharleyBrown

Bob,

I have provided research on this very forum which indicates the number of portrait BB cards distributed in 1947.That research has been used by all the major auction houses, and it appears Beckett as well. To call that card a limited release or a regional release is to ignore that research to fit a narrative.

The set of 13 is a true card set. Its distribution has been documented. Of the 13, the portrait was released first and constitutes his true RC. Following the Portrait and prior to the release of the Swell Sport Thrills set, 6 more Bond Bread cards were distributed, as was the Kneeling Old Gold card (Sept 47 release). None of those take away from the value or significance of the Swell Sport Thrills, which is a beautiful card that deserves its increase in price.

Great Shaun,

All I was ever asking was for some factual or other logical or detailed information as to the distribution and such for the '47 Robinson Bond Bread cards to then explain why it seems there are so few of them still available then. Also, I had merely said that some people believe the Bond Bread cards are more of a regional or limited issue, which some do, and is therefore an absolutely true statement. I also said that I agreed that the Bond Bread cards first came out in 1947, the year before any other of Robinson's ML cards issues did, which is also absolutely true, and makes the 1947 Bond Bread card Robinson's first ML card appearance. But there are still many people that do not consider food/bread or other such specialty/advertising issues as a "true" baseball card set, and therefore eligible to include a player's "true" rookie card. And for you to state otherwise, and say that without a doubt you are right, is really nothing more than simply your opinion, which you are entitled to. But so are the other people that don't necessarily agree with you that a '47 Bond Bread is Robinson's "true" rookie card, regardless of your research, AND THEY ARE ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINIONS, AND JUST AS RIGHT ABOUT THEM, AS MUCH AS YOU ARE TO YOURS!!!

I am all for learning and finding out new things in the hobby, and that is why I very often ask questions of others. I also often make very long and detailed posts myself, just like this one is turning out to be, trying to be thorough, and giving as much factual, logical and common sensical info and data as i can to put forth my own theories and thoughts, and still retain an open mind. But unfortunately, at least on this site, I've found only a very few people that even try to return the favor, without being ridiculous, demeaning, or simply pushing their "I'm right and you're wrong!" mantra over and over again. I always try to keep an open mind and am very willing to look at things from different viewpoints as well. And I absolutely don't mind telling people I was wrong about something if they can actually show me facts and evidence, along with other logical information and arguments, which can convince me their point or theory is actually the correct one, and not just another opinion. Sadly, I usually only get back a couple lines or so from people responding to me for something like this, and they never seem to bother answering any of my questions either, or they just blow me off with their TLDR crap, and/or continue throwing the previously mentioned "mantra" at me, over and over.

You state that you've done research showing the number of portrait cards distributed in '47, and it has been used by AHs and Beckett, and that you've provided that very research here on this forum. Great, then why didn't you just lead with that and at least provide a link to where this data and research is here on the forum, or just recreate and include the research here in this thread? Instead, you say it proves that people that believe this '47 Bond Bread issue was a limited or regional release are ignoring your research. Did it ever occur to you that no one is ignoring it at all, because maybe no one knows it even exists?

I've been a collector and in this hobby for decades. And I've seen many auctions and used to buy Beckett price guides/magazines myself back in the day. I've never seen or heard of this research of yours before now, and I'm going to go out on a limb and make a wild guess that a vast majority of those in the hobby haven't seen or heard of your research either. Otherwise, if it were that overpowering and convincing, why would there be many collectors out there that still don't seem to think of the '47 Bond Bread cards as Robinson's true rookie card? And that isn't pushing a narrative, that is just stating a fact!!!

So, I asked a previous poster to answer a question. And now I've got one question and one request for you.

1. What is this research data you are mentioning, can we actually see it?

2. Do some research and come back to share with everyone in this thread what you find is the definitive definition of what ALL baseball card collectors throughout the ENTIRE hobby have agreed to as the one and only complete and accurate definition of what is an MLB player's "true" rookie card. (And make sure it has been affirmatively agreed to by everyone in the hobby, and that you can actually prove that is true!)


P.S. As for how great the research you did for Beckett and others was, go back to Post #38, and the article that packs linked to in trying to debate some of my thoughts/thinking. I believe that is a Beckett article, right, same people you gave/showed your research to? You did such a fantastic job convincing everyone over there that you are right about the '47 Robinson Bond Bread card as being his "true" rookie card that they couldn't help but talk about it in articles they published about the set. Just read the very first line of that article saying how everyone was now convinced those '47 Bond Bread cards were his "true" rookie cards, oh........wait.....................hmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by BobC

Great Shaun,

All I was ever asking was for some factual or other logical or detailed information as to the distribution and such for the '47 Robinson Bond Bread cards to then explain why it seems there are so few of them still available then. Also, I had merely said that some people believe the Bond Bread cards are more of a regional or limited issue, which some do, and is therefore an absolutely true statement. I also said that I agreed that the Bond Bread cards first came out in 1947, the year before any other of Robinson's ML cards issues did, which is also absolutely true, and makes the 1947 Bond Bread card Robinson's first ML card appearance. But there are still many people that do not consider food/bread or other such specialty/advertising issues as a "true" baseball card set, and therefore eligible to include a player's "true" rookie card. And for you to state otherwise, and say that without a doubt you are right, is really nothing more than simply your opinion, which you are entitled to. But so are the other people that don't necessarily agree with you that a '47 Bond Bread is Robinson's "true" rookie card, regardless of your research, AND THEY ARE ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINIONS, AND JUST AS RIGHT ABOUT THEM, AS MUCH AS YOU ARE TO YOURS!!!

I am all for learning and finding out new things in the hobby, and that is why I very often ask questions of others. I also often make very long and detailed posts myself, just like this one is turning out to be, trying to be thorough, and giving as much factual, logical and common sensical info and data as i can to put forth my own theories and thoughts, and still retain an open mind. But unfortunately, at least on this site, I've found only a very few people that even try to return the favor, without being ridiculous, demeaning, or simply pushing their "I'm right and you're wrong!" mantra over and over again. I always try to keep an open mind and am very willing to look at things from different viewpoints as well. And I absolutely don't mind telling people I was wrong about something if they can actually show me facts and evidence, along with other logical information and arguments, which can convince me their point or theory is actually the correct one, and not just another opinion. Sadly, I usually only get back a couple lines or so from people responding to me for something like this, and they never seem to bother answering any of my questions either, or they just blow me off with their TLDR crap, and/or continue throwing the previously mentioned "mantra" at me, over and over.

You state that you've done research showing the number of portrait cards distributed in '47, and it has been used by AHs and Beckett, and that you've provided that very research here on this forum. Great, then why didn't you just lead with that and at least provide a link to where this data and research is here on the forum, or just recreate and include the research here in this thread? Instead, you say it proves that people that believe this '47 Bond Bread issue was a limited or regional release are ignoring your research. Did it ever occur to you that no one is ignoring it at all, because maybe no one knows it even exists?

I've been a collector and in this hobby for decades. And I've seen many auctions and used to buy Beckett price guides/magazines myself back in the day. I've never seen or heard of this research of yours before now, and I'm going to go out on a limb and make a wild guess that a vast majority of those in the hobby haven't seen or heard of your research either. Otherwise, if it were that overpowering and convincing, why would there be many collectors out there that still don't seem to think of the '47 Bond Bread cards as Robinson's true rookie card? And that isn't pushing a narrative, that is just stating a fact!!!

So, I asked a previous poster to answer a question. And now I've got one question and one request for you.

1. What is this research data you are mentioning, can we actually see it?

2. Do some research and come back to share with everyone in this thread what you find is the definitive definition of what ALL baseball card collectors throughout the ENTIRE hobby have agreed to as the one and only complete and accurate definition of what is an MLB player's "true" rookie card. (And make sure it has been affirmatively agreed to by everyone in the hobby, and that you can actually prove that is true!)


P.S. As for how great the research you did for Beckett and others was, go back to Post #38, and the article that packs linked to in trying to debate some of my thoughts/thinking. I believe that is a Beckett article, right, same people you gave/showed your research to? You did such a fantastic job convincing everyone over there that you are right about the '47 Robinson Bond Bread card as being his "true" rookie card that they couldn't help but talk about it in articles they published about the set. Just read the very first line of that article saying how everyone was now convinced those '47 Bond Bread cards were his "true" rookie cards, oh........wait.....................hmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

I followed the below thread in real time, and I got the sense that many others here did as well. As has been mentioned, Shaun’s Bond Bread research has been cited many times. I remember even seeing direct links to this thread in AH item descriptions. Big thanks to Shaun and all others who have done this type of legwork and shared their findings freely.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=171169