Current HOF election results

tod41 · #1 01-24-2023, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Wright was a 7x All Star, 2x GG winner and two time SS winner.

Rolen was a ROY, 7x All Star, 8x GG winner and one time SS Winner

Peak WAR favors Rolen as well.

As hitters their 162 game averages are almost identical (eliminating the injury argument) and Rolen by the metrics, and also by the eye test apparently, was a better fielder by a decent margin.

Personal attacks don't win arguments. Anyway:

Top 10 MVP Finishes - Wright 4 - Rolen 1

OPS Plus - Wright 133 - Rolen 122

Seasons with OPS Plus 140 or above - Wright 5 - Rolen 1

Seasons 30/30 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0

Seasons 20/20 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0

jayshum · #2 01-24-2023, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tod41

Personal attacks don't win arguments. Anyway:

Top 10 MVP Finishes - Wright 4 - Rolen 1

OPS Plus - Wright 133 - Rolen 122

Seasons with OPS Plus 140 or above - Wright 5 - Rolen 1

Seasons 30/30 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0

Seasons 20/20 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0

I think Wright will end up like Mattingly and most voters will think his career was too short even though his peak was very high. It just wasn't long enough because of injuries.

Mike D. · #3 01-24-2023, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

I think Wright will end up like Mattingly and most voters will think his career was too short even though his peak was very high. It just wasn't long enough because of injuries.

Yeah, with 450+ fewer games than Rolen, and almost 1,650 fewer plate appearances, it's just too short a resume despite some really impressive peak numbers.

Still a very good player, though. We have to remember that NOT being in the 1% or 2% of players who make the Hall of Fame isn't a slight.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #4 01-24-2023, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

I think Wright will end up like Mattingly and most voters will think his career was too short even though his peak was very high. It just wasn't long enough because of injuries.

Except Peak Wright was nowhere near as good as Peak Mattingly, and I'm ambivalent about Mattingly getting in.

1952boyntoncollector · #5 01-24-2023, 08:16 PM

I wonder if they make HOF inductees learn some history before being enshrined...like not knowing half the people that played your position in the HOF already would look better if they took the time to learn that info for example for the sense of history

Mike D. · #6 01-24-2023, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I wonder if they make HOF inductees learn some history before being enshrined...like not knowing half the people that played your position in the HOF already would look better if they took the time to learn that info for example for the sense of history

Often electees will tour the Hall of Fame before induction. Not sure there's a history lesson per say, but I'm sure they learn something!

FrankWakefield · #7 01-24-2023, 09:59 PM

The first Cardinal I saw playing 3rd base was Ken Boyer. As a young kid I remember reading Guardian of the Hot Corner. Boyer was on the cover, in color... I was maybe 10 years old and had no idea what the Hot Corner was, but I knew Boyer played 3rd base. I still have that book. Somewhere. My point is that I've seen a bunch of people play 3rd base for the Cardinals. 60 years of Cardinal third basemen. And I remember them. I fondly remember Ken Reitz, who'd be hitting .340 in May (until the annual nose dive to .270 come summer), fielding everything in sight, and throwing ropes to first base. I liked Terry Pendleton, Ken Oberkfel, Joe Torre... I liked Todd Ziele at third, and Richie Allen did more than swing a bat, he could field and throw that long toss across the diamond. At present, the Cardinals have about the best third baseman in the game, Nolan Arenado.

Rolen was a good Cardinal the moment he spoke after the trade that landed him in St. Louis. My recollection was that he grew up in or near Evansville, IN, that's in the southern part of Indiana, across the Ohio River is Kentucky. I'd drive through Evansville on the way to St. Louis, if it was by car. Scott Rolen, moist eyed, declared that as a kid, he grew up a Cardinals fan; he dreamed of playing for the Cardinals when he grew up.

As a Cardinal, Rolen motivated his team-mates. He was a smart, solid ballplayer. He was dependable in the postseason for the Cardinals. He was a hitter who could dependably drive in runs and advance runners.

I'm ok with his election and pending induction. It's not undeserved. I recognize that Todd Helton seems deserving, too. I hope he gets in. Still, if I could sway the electorate, educate them, I'd urge them to vote in Ed Reulbach.

David Wright was a good 3rd baseman. If you look at how a player was for a career, Rolen was the better of the two. If you don't think so, look at all the numbers. Rolen hit a bit better, with fewer strikeouts. Rolen's last two seasons in Cincy hurt his averages a bit.

Mike Schmidt could crush a baseball. He walked a lot, not from a good eye, but from pitchers getting to the next batter. Schmidt struck out often. And he was a good fielder. But his batting average wasn't stellar. I don't deem him a great HOF third baseman. (I'm thinking of Joe Torre's batting title as a Cardinal third baseman at the moment, smiling.) George Kell was a great HOF third baseman. So was Brooks Robinson, and Pie Traynor. As was Boggs, Brett, and Santo. And I'll add Eddie Mathews, Chipper Jones, and even John McGraw.

David Wright? Come on now...

Peter_Spaeth · #8 01-24-2023, 10:05 PM

Agree with Frank. It's an underrepresented position and Rolen was a very good 3B both defensively and offensively. Elite all time great, no, but that's not the standard.

molenick · #9 01-24-2023, 11:20 PM

I agree with Frank that Rolen deserves to be in, but I would respectfully disagree with Mike Schmidt not being a great HOFer and George Kell being one. I will take Schmidt and his 548 HRs, 3 MVPS, 8 HR titles, .908 OPS, ten gold gloves, and 106.8 WAR (first among third basemen) over George Kell and his...well, anything except his .306 batting average and ability not to strike out (WAR ranks him around 50th at third, which at least puts him ahead of Traynor). I would also take Mickey Mantle over Lloyd Waner and Johnny Bench over Ernie Lombardi. There is more to being a great HOFer than batting average and low strikeout totals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Mike Schmidt could crush a baseball. He walked a lot, not from a good eye, but from pitchers getting to the next batter. Schmidt struck out often. And he was a good fielder. But his batting average wasn't stellar. I don't deem him a great HOF third baseman. (I'm thinking of Joe Torre's batting title as a Cardinal third baseman at the moment, smiling.) George Kell was a great HOF third baseman. So was Brooks Robinson, and Pie Traynor. As was Boggs, Brett, and Santo. And I'll add Eddie Mathews, Chipper Jones, and even John McGraw.

.

tod41 · #10 01-25-2023, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

The first Cardinal I saw playing 3rd base was Ken Boyer. As a young kid I remember reading Guardian of the Hot Corner. Boyer was on the cover, in color... I was maybe 10 years old and had no idea what the Hot Corner was, but I knew Boyer played 3rd base. I still have that book. Somewhere. My point is that I've seen a bunch of people play 3rd base for the Cardinals. 60 years of Cardinal third basemen. And I remember them. I fondly remember Ken Reitz, who'd be hitting .340 in May (until the annual nose dive to .270 come summer), fielding everything in sight, and throwing ropes to first base. I liked Terry Pendleton, Ken Oberkfel, Joe Torre... I liked Todd Ziele at third, and Richie Allen did more than swing a bat, he could field and throw that long toss across the diamond. At present, the Cardinals have about the best third baseman in the game, Nolan Arenado.

Rolen was a good Cardinal the moment he spoke after the trade that landed him in St. Louis. My recollection was that he grew up in or near Evansville, IN, that's in the southern part of Indiana, across the Ohio River is Kentucky. I'd drive through Evansville on the way to St. Louis, if it was by car. Scott Rolen, moist eyed, declared that as a kid, he grew up a Cardinals fan; he dreamed of playing for the Cardinals when he grew up.

As a Cardinal, Rolen motivated his team-mates. He was a smart, solid ballplayer. He was dependable in the postseason for the Cardinals. He was a hitter who could dependably drive in runs and advance runners.

I'm ok with his election and pending induction. It's not undeserved. I recognize that Todd Helton seems deserving, too. I hope he gets in. Still, if I could sway the electorate, educate them, I'd urge them to vote in Ed Reulbach.

David Wright was a good 3rd baseman. If you look at how a player was for a career, Rolen was the better of the two. If you don't think so, look at all the numbers. Rolen hit a bit better, with fewer strikeouts. Rolen's last two seasons in Cincy hurt his averages a bit.

Mike Schmidt could crush a baseball. He walked a lot, not from a good eye, but from pitchers getting to the next batter. Schmidt struck out often. And he was a good fielder. But his batting average wasn't stellar. I don't deem him a great HOF third baseman. (I'm thinking of Joe Torre's batting title as a Cardinal third baseman at the moment, smiling.) George Kell was a great HOF third baseman. So was Brooks Robinson, and Pie Traynor. As was Boggs, Brett, and Santo. And I'll add Eddie Mathews, Chipper Jones, and even John McGraw.

David Wright? Come on now...

David Wright was a better offensive player than Rolen. Wright has the edge at OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS plus. Wright also played in much tougher home ballparks than Rolen. I can only imagine what Wright's lifetime stats would be if he played his home games in Philly for 5-6 years while in his prime. In addition, Wright had far more speed and stole nearly 200 bases before his back gave out. Just a note about Rolen's All-Star appearances, while he is tied with Wright at 7, two of his selections were highly questionable and were basically gifts - see 2005 and 2011.

BioCRN · #11 01-25-2023, 09:23 PM

There's better than him not in the Hall. There's worse than him in the Hall.

Being nice and available to the media has always been a huge help to these kind of guys and he got that cred. It helped a lot.

I'm not surprised he was elected to the Hall and if he wasn't I would be surprised if a Vet's Committee didn't put him in years later independent of what sports writers may think of him.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #12 01-24-2023, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tod41

Personal attacks don't win arguments. Anyway:

Top 10 MVP Finishes - Wright 4 - Rolen 1

OPS Plus - Wright 133 - Rolen 122

Seasons with OPS Plus 140 or above - Wright 5 - Rolen 1

Seasons 30/30 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0

Seasons 20/20 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0

It was supposed to be silly, not an attack

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