Is V153 really Canadian and V?

G1911 · #1 02-07-2023, 01:23 PM

Robertson appears to have been around through at least 1918, when they are still listed at the 256 Grenwhich address in city directories. American Caramel had an address at 233 Broadway in NYC, but they were headquartered in York, PA. They controlled most of the caramel industry in the US after they bought Lancaster from Milton Hershey.

I have found no evidence that the American Caramel company owned the Robertson Candy Company. Robertson is a small business, $10K is something like ~$300K today, their capital makes sense for a small operation and storefront. It is, though, entirely possible they were a subsidiary front. In the time of the anti-monopoly laws and much vagueness about what the federal government was really going to do, many industries dominated by a single company seem to be using informal shell companies to try and make it look more competitive. In the T220 Silver thread we've found much that strongly suggests this was exactly the case for American Lithography, and American Tobacco. Since the purpose of these smaller subsidiaries was to remain clandestine and appear to not be what they actually were, we aren't going to find a document saying this in journals and newspapers; if such a document was ever made and survived it would be in an archive or attic somewhere.

While the ATC and their friends Knapp and AL clearly had some kind of exclusivity agreement, I don't think its clear this was the case for most of the E cards. Lots of anonymous cards, lots of sets that seem to have been printed to advertise multiple products or companies, it could be that Robertson was one of many clandestine subsidiaries, or that someone there thought it would be a good idea to do what the big boys were doing

For the dates, I would be shocked if the Robertson sets predated the ACC ones. They must be the same time or after; it doesn't make sense the other way around.

That prewarcards site makes a lot of claims to fact, almost none of which are sourced. Many come from hobby tradition and are wrong because much of hobby tradition has never been researched, others they seem to have invented and are directly at odds with all evidence and the ledgers. Just looking at the T cards I've looked into the most, T218 is not 1910-1912 nor issued by Honest, it's 1910-1911 (as the ledger makes clear). T219 is not a 1910 set (impossible, some of the cards it copies weren't made until 1911). T220 is 1910-1911, not just 1910. T225 is not a 1911 set, it is an early 1910 set as the Fullgraff ledger makes clear. T9 is 1910-1911, not just 1911. T223 is probably a 1910-1911 or 1911 release, not 1910, the answer to this one probably lies in the Fullgraff ledger if we ever got to see a full copy of all pages. T227 appears dated correct, but sure wasn't issued by Mecca. The site is riddled with false dates and claims in regards to the boxing cards at least.

I have an E75 master, E76, most of E47 and no Robertson's. The Robertson's are brutal to find; no idea what they are really worth nowadays as I haven't seen any recent sale the last couple years. Had one as a type on my wantlist.

RCMcKenzie · #2 02-07-2023, 05:47 PM

Interesting stuff to think about. I think Anson said he was using PSA's issue dates. I agree that PSA does not know.

I would think Robertson would have copied the design of American Caramel, or maybe used with permission, and agree Robertson would have to have been a later or concurrent issue.

G1911 · #3 02-16-2023, 11:48 AM

Bradshaw was the director of Crown Sweets Co. in 1908 according to the Trow corporate directory (https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=0). He seems to be career candy man.

The 1919 edition of Trows has two listings for Robertson Candy Co., one dissolved. Not clear on what that means exactly https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover

They were apparently so small time that even when placing paid ads, their name was sometimes got wrong. The Spatula calls them the �Robinson Candy Company�, contrary to the sign off even, at the end of 1918 (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover, 154)

Bradshaw was apparently the candy man running the business. Robertson presumably provided the capital.

By June of 1923 they have moved to 31 Jay St, advertising that their fruit tables �prevents the taking in of much dust� when driving cars. (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover, 322). They were at the 286 Greenwich Street address into 1919 at least.

Bradshaw has some popping corn patents, and seems to be doing other things by November of 1921, when advertisements for his own companies popcorn run adjacent to Robertson advertisements in the Confectioners Journal (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover - November, 2). He might still be working with Robertson to. For baseball collectors, one page above the Robertson and Bradshaw ads, is one for the Croft & Allen Co. showing a drawing of their buildings in Philadelphia (November, 1).

They seem to fade from visibility after 1923 or so.

I found in Canada a Robertson Bros. Ltd. firm in the confectionary candy space, from the 19th century into the 1920�s at least in the Toronto area. They always seem to go by Robertson Bros. or Robertson Brothers, never once �Robertson Candy Co.� or something close to that beyond also having a �Robertson� own it. This firm was a larger operation and its founding brother wealthy Scottish immigrants. There are numerous advertisements, columns, press reports, journal articles and biographical entries of its founders easily found. I think this is not our company either, like the later Robertson Candy Co. in Canada that existed in Burdick�s day but not when the cards were issued, and has the wrong name. It is another possible explanation for how the Canadian origin was placed onto the cards though, as it is similar sounding.

Still cannot find a "Robertson Candy Co." or "Robertson Candy" in Canada during the period the cards are apparently from.

toppcat · #4 02-18-2023, 02:30 PM

I believe dissolved means the company or corporation that was formed has been shut down but still exists until its business is wound up (debts paid, remaining capital distributed etc.). It was pretty common around WW1 and WW2, likely due to cash flow issues in many cases.

G1911 · #5 02-18-2023, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toppcat

I believe dissolved means the company or corporation that was formed has been shut down but still exists until its business is wound up (debts paid, remaining capital distributed etc.). It was pretty common around WW1 and WW2, likely due to cash flow issues in many cases.

What's really tripping me up is the dual listing. Robertson Candy Co. also operated as the Roberston-Bradshaw Co. (I think this was the legal name for them, most of the advertising is Robertson Candy Co.). They have 2 entries, both at the same address of their storefront in the listing. It doesn't look like the business was actually dissolved, or that it reconstituted into a different entity for debt or tax purposes as the new entity had the same name, address and ownership/operators. I don't understand what this dual listing signifies

toppcat · #6 02-18-2023, 04:10 PM

It's almost like how comic and pulp publishers operated in the early days-each title was essentially published by a different company so an issue with one title (likely owing the distributor more than could be paid) didn't take down the larger concern. It would not surprise me if that's the case here.

G1911 · #7 02-18-2023, 05:45 PM

That the companies have the exact same name, address and operators sounds odd to me, like it would be very difficult for them to argue in court that it is not the same company, as they haven't even tweaked the name slightly. I may just be misreading the records here.

Separate from the dissolution, some research on their business location to see if any connections can be established, or time lines clarified. I have yet to find a direct record of the cards, which I doubt exists.

Greenwich Street still exists, along the western side of Manhattan close to the shore. It looks like 286 isn't a valid address anymore, but that many of the buildings on this street are the old and tall brick businesses. Their store might still be standing under a different numbering scheme.

Robertson apparently did not have the building to themselves. In 1916 the H.C. Wetterau Co., "receives and delivers" eggs, cheeses and butters at the address, at the same time the Robertson Candy Company was still using it too. (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover, page 1010).

A complicated court case I don't have the patience to read 1,000 pages of for this tiny footnote of card history has the Horace Frick machining company there in 1909, and shows they owned machinery there through at least 1912, when Roberston Candy Co. was also there. (https://books.googleusercontent.com/...Ex_CwjMrNWuVRw)

In 1914 a W.T. Wheeler had his yacht registered to this address, again when Robertson Candy Co. was using it still. (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover)

A 1901 (pre-Robertson) report of the Committee on Fire Patrol says it was a five story brick building (which sounds exactly like how many of the buildings on this street today look like on Google) and has it occupied by 2 businesses. The other businesses on the street were 3-7 story brick (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover)

In 1909, the Crown Sweets Co. is listed by the Health Department as being at the 286 address, just before Robertson Candy seems to have been founded. Robertson may be descended from this company, or took over a previous manufacturer and retailers confectionary space and equipment. https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=0

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