Hey, pennant guys

perezfan · #1 02-08-2023, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Great stuff Kyle. Thanks. I'll be busy updating my pennant catalog this weekend.

Kyle and Marc too.... Thanks to you both for solving yet another gonfalon mystery.

ooo-ribay · #2 02-08-2023, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Kyle and Marc too.... Thanks to you both for solving yet another gonfalon mystery.

Not gonna lie�had to google �gonfalon.�

Domer05 · #3 02-08-2023, 11:02 PM

Right. So, who saw it being Epstein Novelty Co.? Raise your hand!

I have seen their pennants/labels for years; but, always assumed they were a small novelty distributor serving the New York area that sold, among other products, felt pennants. But, they must've actually been a manufacturer of pennants.

Epstein Novelty Co. goes back to the 1910s, when they primarily made badges and buttons. You'll see WWI-themed buttons bearing their mark and address on the reverse. Did they make pennants back then, too? Unclear.

Seems to me they likely began making pennants in the 1930s. The earliest one I can date was from the 1941 Rose Bowl. Their hey day seems to be the late 1940s, early 1950s. As Mark mentioned, they were absolutely huge in terms of market share: pro baseball and football pennants; but also collegiate and high school pennants, too. Most impressively, their pennants were not limited to NYC teams by any stretch; they served the entire nation.

They were a lot like Trench in that respect.

They're quality, however, was nothing like Trench's. By the late 1940s they ceased using labels, tassels; and, their designs were always monochrome. Their artwork, moreover, was super generic. Nothing team-specific. Just the same generic player used over and over again.

Case in point: our "sliding runner" and "the Heisman" series. I never realized these were made by the same maker until I saw these two Brooklyn Dodger pennants. Note the less than perfect lettering; especially the "O" in "DODGERS". It's a bit ... rough.

Kind of explains why they occasionally fused scraps of felt together to make a spine....

To really solve the mystery, however, we needed one of these pennants from either series to also have a label or maker's mark on them. Last month I came across the Columbia pennant mark highlighted earlier--with an Epstein tag. That sealed the deal for me. I'm only aware of one other from "the Heisman" series with an Epstein label; and it's this Cornell pennant, complete with tassels, just like the Columbia one.

Anyway, mystery solved.

Domer05 · #4 02-08-2023, 11:35 PM

As Mark noted, Epstein Novelty Co. also produced a series featuring a punter kicking a football across the length of the pennant. I'm a little hesitant to call it a "series" because there are slight variations in these designs; but, overall, the concept is the same; and, many bear Epstein's label.

Let's name this the "the kicking punter" series

bocca001 · #5 02-09-2023, 07:51 AM

The only way that I attempt to help Kyle is by filling up his inbox with email listings every time I see a pennant with a label or some kind of pennant brochure. But I never saw the Columbia pennant. That's all Kyle. I do remember sending him a pic of an Epstein label from a Texas A&M pennant a few years ago, but never thought it would be the maker of these series. So Epstein did make more generic college pennants too.

Kyle- I always thought that the left footed kicker pennants (below) were made by the same company as the runner pennant (now identified as Epstein). But I think you have attributed this style to Trench. I have posted two examples below, with one clearly being older than the other. The older one seems very similar to the Epstein runner pennants with respect to materials and feel. Just wondering how/why you have associated the left footed kicker design with Trench. It's probably too weird for Epstein to have two different kicker versions (given how steadfastly they stuck to the runner and slider designs).

The newer version of the kicker pennant has additional details in the background. I know that these exist for some NFL teams. I think Fballguy has a pic of a Raiders pennant with this image on his website. Santa Clara stopped playing major football in 1952, so the pennant is likely 1952 or earlier. I suppose the two kicker pennants could have been made by different companies, with the newer being a copy.

Fballguy · #6 02-09-2023, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bocca001

Kyle- I always thought that the left footed kicker pennants (below) were made by the same company as the runner pennant (now identified as Epstein). But I think you have attributed this style to Trench. I have posted two examples below, with one clearly being older than the other. The older one seems very similar to the Epstein runner pennants with respect to materials and feel. Just wondering how/why you have associated the left footed kicker design with Trench. It's probably too weird for Epstein to have two different kicker versions (given how steadfastly they stuck to the runner and slider designs).

The newer version of the kicker pennant has additional details in the background. I know that these exist for some NFL teams. I think Fballguy has a pic of a Raiders pennant with this image on his website. Santa Clara stopped playing major football in 1952, so the pennant is likely 1952 or earlier. I suppose the two kicker pennants could have been made by different companies, with the newer being a copy.

You're spot on for the time frame of the lower kicker pennant. Pretty easy to differentiate the ones from the 1940s from the ones from the 1960s, such as the Raiders you mention. The 1940s version have little blob flags and not much detail to the stadium. Also, many of the teams you find are defunct and existed for a very short time in the 40s or early 50s. Whereas the 60s version has proper flags and fans in the stands (Rams pennant below).

thetahat · #7 02-09-2023, 09:20 PM

I believe these three to be from the same company, one that we have yet to identify.

ooo-ribay · #8 02-09-2023, 09:37 PM

I know this has been mentioned before�.but we gotta do a pennant book!

I�m sure many of you are familiar with Paul Muchinsky�s pinback book. For me, it�s the gold standard. I�m very much a �pin guy,� too, and Paul�s book is a treasure. He told me a) it was a pain in the ass to produce and b) it was a money loser. But, man, the information you guys have come up with is unbelievable. I wish Paul was still around so I could pick his brain on the book publishing process. I haven�t contributed all that much to the pennant research�but I am, and always will be, the OP of this here, high quality thread.

I highly value all of you�.my obsessive pennant (gonfalon) brothers!

Domer05 · #9 02-11-2023, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bocca001

Kyle- I always thought that the left footed kicker pennants (below) were made by the same company as the runner pennant (now identified as Epstein). But I think you have attributed this style to Trench. I have posted two examples below, with one clearly being older than the other. The older one seems very similar to the Epstein runner pennants with respect to materials and feel. Just wondering how/why you have associated the left footed kicker design with Trench. It's probably too weird for Epstein to have two different kicker versions (given how steadfastly they stuck to the runner and slider designs).

You're right: I do believe the "left footed punter" artwork to be associated with Trench. Similarly, I attribute the "moon-lit batter" artwork to be by Trench. There may be no consensus among this thread as to who made them; but, they were both 26" long and undoubtedly by the same maker, as the two Brooklyn Dodger pennants below illustrate....

Around the same time that these two graphics/series were being produced, late 1940s/early 1950s, a third series surfaced. It too consisted largely of 26" long pennants. It was the "insert ballpark name" series, for lack of a better name. It too was by the same maker, as these New York Yankees pennants illustrate....

All three series involved 26" long, 3/4 size pennants. More importantly, all were made by the same company. Further, the "insert ballpark name" series represented a really cutting edge pennant for its day. Look at how many colors this maker used! Four colors? Two pairs of tassels? Who else was making pennants that nice by 1950? Who else (save maybe Epstein) had this big of market share by 1950? That distinctive serif letter font--who else relied on that as heavily as Trench throughout the 1940s and 50s?

There really isn't anyone else ... is there?

Still not convinced? Look at these two Eagles pennants (courtesy of fballguy's / feltfootball.com).... There's your left footed punter; and, underneath him there's a companion pennant from the same maker bearing yet another graphic associated with Trench.

Look, it may not be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but, for me, all signs point to Buffalo, NY on this one. Which means, all three of the pennants Greg identified in post #7205, with that kooky letter font, are also, in my opinion, by Trench.

This shouldn't surprise us: they were a really big, successful company.

bocca001 · #10 02-11-2023, 06:11 AM

Well, you've convinced me.

Any additional thoughts about AMCO Emblem as the maker of the football runner pennants? Given their ad and the painted pennants "division" of their business?

Domer05 · #11 02-11-2023, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bocca001

Well, you've convinced me.

Any additional thoughts about AMCO Emblem as the maker of the football runner pennants? Given their ad and the painted pennants "division" of their business?

Marc: AMCO's legal/corporate name was "AMCO Athletic Apparel Corp." as of 1947. I'm still researching them, but I can tell you that pennants were only a portion of their business. They specialized in apparel, as their name suggests, namely baseball and football uniforms. Hence the "painted pennant division" verbiage referenced on their 1938 ad.

They must've put that in there because they wanted their customers to know they made more than uniforms?

ooo-ribay · #12 02-11-2023, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05

You're right: I do believe the "left footed punter" artwork to be associated with Trench. Similarly, I attribute the "moon-lit batter" artwork to be by Trench. There may be no consensus among this thread as to who made them; but, they were both 26" long and undoubtedly by the same maker, as the two Brooklyn Dodger pennants below illustrate....

Around the same time that these two graphics/series were being produced, late 1940s/early 1950s, a third series surfaced. It too consisted largely of 26" long pennants. It was the "insert ballpark name" series, for lack of a better name. It too was by the same maker, as these New York Yankees pennants illustrate....

Very interesting how you showed the progression and interchange of fonts and graphics. I know I�ve asked, but I�ll ask again�.do you think this is Trench as well or did someone steal the �moon-lit batter�?

thetahat · #13 02-11-2023, 10:48 AM

Counter argument:

If the “insert ballpark name” pennant was made by Trench, then Trench made the top two pennants pictured below in the same year for the same team. They share nothing in common. Not the texture of the felt, the spine, the stitch, the graphics, etc. all very different. The middle two share almost everything in common and seem obvious to be from the same company. ‘51 Cinderella Boys Giants is also a match and has a very different scroll graphic than what Trench uses. Bottom is Trench.

All are full-size.

Domer05 · #14 02-11-2023, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Very interesting how you showed the progression and interchange of fonts and graphics. I know I�ve asked, but I�ll ask again�.do you think this is Trench as well or did someone steal the �moon-lit batter�?

Probably?? That's a tough one. Sure, it's the same batter artwork; but super-imposed on a rendering of Candlestick? And, those colors?? Doesn't look like anything else Trench did around 1962 but ... who knows?

1962 was the the year Tom Storm joined his father at Trench and assumed a role in running the company. He told me he was all about trying new production methods aimed at lowering their costs ... some that worked ... others that failed.

If Trench made this, it could have been one of their little experiments....

...Or, the artwork was just stolen by a rival maker and inserted into a new design?

thetahat · #15 02-09-2023, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05

Right. So, who saw it being Epstein Novelty Co.? Raise your hand!

I have seen their pennants/labels for years; but, always assumed they were a small novelty distributor serving the New York area that sold, among other products, felt pennants. But, they must've actually been a manufacturer of pennants.

Epstein Novelty Co. goes back to the 1910s, when they primarily made badges and buttons. You'll see WWI-themed buttons bearing their mark and address on the reverse. Did they make pennants back then, too? Unclear.

Seems to me they likely began making pennants in the 1930s. The earliest one I can date was from the 1941 Rose Bowl. Their hey day seems to be the late 1940s, early 1950s. As Mark mentioned, they were absolutely huge in terms of market share: pro baseball and football pennants; but also collegiate and high school pennants, too. Most impressively, their pennants were not limited to NYC teams by any stretch; they served the entire nation.

They were a lot like Trench in that respect.

They're quality, however, was nothing like Trench's. By the late 1940s they ceased using labels, tassels; and, their designs were always monochrome. Their artwork, moreover, was super generic. Nothing team-specific. Just the same generic player used over and over again.

Case in point: our "sliding runner" and "the Heisman" series. I never realized these were made by the same maker until I saw these two Brooklyn Dodger pennants. Note the less than perfect lettering; especially the "O" in "DODGERS". It's a bit ... rough.

Kind of explains why they occasionally fused scraps of felt together to make a spine....

To really solve the mystery, however, we needed one of these pennants from either series to also have a label or maker's mark on them. Last month I came across the Columbia pennant mark highlighted earlier--with an Epstein tag. That sealed the deal for me. I'm only aware of one other from "the Heisman" series with an Epstein label; and it's this Cornell pennant, complete with tassels, just like the Columbia one.

Anyway, mystery solved.

Great stuff, keep it coming!

Will disagree about the allegedly generic nature of their pennants. At least as far as baseball is concerned. By my count 13 of the 16 teams have alternatives with a team-specific logo. Also many football. They also gave us the highly underrated full body roster pennant �

ooo-ribay · #16 02-09-2023, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat

Great stuff, keep it coming!

Will disagree about the allegedly generic nature of their pennants. At least as far as baseball is concerned. By my count 13 of the 16 teams have alternatives with a team-specific logo. Also many football. They also gave us the highly underrated full body roster pennant �

So, this is "an Epstein"? How you you/we know that?

thetahat · #17 02-09-2023, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

So, this is "an Epstein"? How you you/we know that?

See post 7172 above. Same exact blue jay. Pennant also same size, same stitching, same felt, and 7172 shows the unique split spine which Epsteins (LOL) are known for. Short of a pennant DNA test this is as conclusive as it gets.

Also Epstein:

ooo-ribay · #18 02-09-2023, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat

See post 7172 above. Same exact blue jay. Pennant also same size, same stitching, same felt, and 7172 shows the unique split spine which Epsteins (LOL) are known for. Short of a pennant DNA test this is as conclusive as it gets.

Also Epstein:

I knew there was a reason! Now�.please show me a close up of this �split spine� of which you speak.

thetahat · #19 02-09-2023, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I knew there was a reason! Now�.please show me a close up of this �split spine� of which you speak.

What�s interesting is, the stitching is unbroken.

perezfan · #20 02-09-2023, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I knew there was a reason! Now….please show me a close up of this “split spine” of which you speak.

+1

Can’t imagine what that’s about, as it sounds more like a condition flaw.

thetahat · #21 02-09-2023, 08:06 PM

delete

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Are Memorabilia Guys Smarter Than Card Guys?	4scuda	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	14	02-13-2014 09:13 AM
Looking to trade my Lefty Tyler BF2 pennant for a BF2 Cubs pennant	milkit1	Pre-WWII cards (E, D, M, etc..) B/S/T	0	01-05-2013 08:21 PM
1913 Northwestern League Pennant Winners Pennant	Archive	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	1	03-19-2009 06:55 AM
1920 World Series Pennant for Sale - pennant for Indians v. Dodgers - still available	Archive	Baseball Memorabilia B/S/T	3	11-20-2007 09:54 AM
O/T For Stat Guys Only, I'm sure SABR guys are already looking it up	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	48	07-05-2007 07:31 PM