Roberto Clemente Banned in Florida

G1911 · #1 02-12-2023, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You just moved the goalposts of the discussion I was talking about critical race theory.

Hm. The books the thread is about seems to be the topic, but alright. We'll pretend it's not. 'Critical Race Theory' is not in the bill, and is a rather vague term used on the right. I'm not exactly a supporter of the bill, I've simply read it and can see that the media accounts are in complete opposition to the actual text.

Here's 51-83 with what it actually doesn't allow instruction of. What part do you think is a problem and want to debate instead of the books that it obviously doesn't ban?

51. 1. Members of one race, color, sex, or national origin are
52 morally superior to members of another race, color, sex, or
53 national origin.
54 2. An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex,
55 or national origin, is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive,
56 whether consciously or unconsciously.
57 3. An individual�s moral character or status as either
58 privileged or oppressed is necessarily determined by his or her
59 race, color, sex, or national origin.
60 4. Members of one race, color, sex, or national origin
61 cannot and should not attempt to treat others without respect to
62 race, color, sex, or national origin.
63 5. An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex,
64 or national origin, bears responsibility for, or should be
65 discriminated against or receive adverse treatment because of,
66 actions committed in the past by other members of the same race,
67 color, sex, or national origin.
68 6. An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex,
69 or national origin, should be discriminated against or receive
70 adverse treatment to achieve diversity, equity, or inclusion.
71 7. An individual should feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, or
72 any other form of psychological distress on account of his or
73 her race, color, sex, or national origin.
74 8. Such virtues as merit, excellence, hard work, fairness,
75 neutrality, objectivity, and racial colorblindness are racist or
76 sexist, or were created by members of a particular race, color,
77 sex, or national origin to oppress members of another race,
78 color, sex, or national origin.
79 (b) Paragraph (a) may not be construed to prohibit
80 discussion of the concepts listed therein as part of a course of
81 training or instruction, provided such training or instruction
82 is given in an objective manner without endorsement of the
83 concepts.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 02-12-2023, 11:38 AM

By signing this legislation, which is the first in the nation to end corporate wokeness and Critical Race Theory in our schools, we are prioritizing education not indoctrination,� said Lieutenant Governor Jeanette Nu�ez. �We will always fight to protect our children and parents from this Marxist-inspired curriculum.�

Peter_Spaeth · #3 02-12-2023, 11:44 AM

While acknowledging Friday that critical race theory is not taught in Florida schools, DeSantis claimed its "principles" are entering into class instruction, especially in how history and social science is taught. He got the Florida Board of Education last year to specifically ban its use in schools.

G1911 · #4 02-12-2023, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By signing this legislation, which is the first in the nation to end corporate wokeness and Critical Race Theory in our schools, we are prioritizing education not indoctrination,� said Lieutenant Governor Jeanette Nu�ez. �We will always fight to protect our children and parents from this Marxist-inspired curriculum.�

Again, the narratives of left and right are not actual reality. Proponents of a bill typically describe it about as accurately as the media does, for political purposes to their base. I do not care about this rhetoric, when we have the actual text in front of us. Which clause are you objecting to, or constitutes the very vague 'critical race theory'? As far as I can tell this is a catch-call term multiple groups are using to denote things they don't like. What part of the actual law do you want to discuss?

Peter_Spaeth · #5 02-12-2023, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Again, the narratives of left and right are not actual reality. Proponents of a bill typically describe it about as accurately as the media does, for political purposes to their base. I do not care about this rhetoric, when we have the actual text in front of us. Which clause are you objecting to, or constitutes the very vague 'critical race theory'? As far as I can tell this is a catch-call term multiple groups are using to denote things they don't like. What part of the actual law do you want to discuss?

54-56 and 63-67, for example, are vague enough that they could be applied to it. Did you read the order striking down the law as applied to universities? Unlike the statute, it's damn long lol. IMO this statute was drafted very cynically using vague language to give the appearance of neutrality but everyone from the Governor on down knows the purpose.

G1911 · #6 02-12-2023, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

54-56 and 63-67, for example, are vague enough that they could be applied to it. Did you read the order striking down the law as applied to universities? Unlike the statute, it's damn long lol. IMO this statute was drafted very cynically using vague language to give the appearance of neutrality but everyone from the Governor on down knows the purpose.

I have not read the court order (it won't be the last on the matter), I do see the first amendment grounds here and that is what makes me uncertain about this bill (though that same standard would need to be applied to all laws dictating what the schools teach, which it is not). A lot of things that I think are correct or good are not constitutional, and thus should not be law. I disagree with most any restriction on speech, no matter how vile, though I would support this strict standard on everything equally, which the opponents to this bill generally do not think.

" An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex,
55 or national origin, is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive,
56 whether consciously or unconsciously."

If we are saying we want to teach children the opposite here and this ban is morally bad, I have to disagree. I do not think it is good to teach that a person is inherently bad because of their race, color or sex, and that this is clearly racist or sexist to do so. If critical race theory means teaching children that they are inherently bad things because of their skin color or sex, then I am strongly against it. Why would we want to teach this?

" 5. An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex,
64 or national origin, bears responsibility for, or should be
65 discriminated against or receive adverse treatment because of,
66 actions committed in the past by other members of the same race,
67 color, sex, or national origin."

Again, are we saying this is a bad idea? Should we teach that people of a skin color should be discriminated against? I don't see anything to object too. Isn't this the opposite of racism? If critical race theory means teaching that a person is responsible for evils committed by other people they have nothing to do with on the basis of their race, color or sex I think that is is silly and by definition obviously racist. I can find no reasonable objection to the idea here. Why would we want to teach this?

Peter_Spaeth · #7 02-12-2023, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I have not read the court order (it won't be the last on the matter), I do see the first amendment grounds here and that is what makes me uncertain about this bill (though that same standard would need to be applied to all laws dictating what the schools teach, which it is not). A lot of things that I think are correct or good are not constitutional, and thus should not be law. I disagree with most any restriction on speech, no matter how vile, though I would support this strict standard on everything equally, which the opponents to this bill generally do not think.

" An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex,
55 or national origin, is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive,
56 whether consciously or unconsciously."

If we are saying we want to teach children the opposite here and this ban is morally bad, I have to disagree. I do not think it is good to teach that a person is inherently bad because of their race, color or sex, and that this is clearly racist or sexist to do so. If critical race theory means teaching children that they are inherently bad things because of their skin color or sex, then I am strongly against it. Why would we want to teach this?

" 5. An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex,
64 or national origin, bears responsibility for, or should be
65 discriminated against or receive adverse treatment because of,
66 actions committed in the past by other members of the same race,
67 color, sex, or national origin."

Again, are we saying this is a bad idea? Should we teach that people of a skin color should be discriminated against? I don't see anything to object too. Isn't this the opposite of racism? If critical race theory means teaching that a person is responsible for evils committed by other people they have nothing to do with on the basis of their race, color or sex I think that is is silly and by definition obviously racist. I can find no reasonable objection to the idea here. Why would we want to teach this?

Certainly it is a criticism of critical race theory that it itself is racist. That debate is another question, or whether we SHOULD teach it is also another question. But BANNING something from being taught is to me problematic. And mostly politically motivated posturing, since it wasn't even being taught.

G1911 · #8 02-12-2023, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Certainly it is a criticism of critical race theory that it itself is racist. That debate is another question, or whether we SHOULD teach it is also another question. But BANNING something from being taught is to me problematic.

Okay, so we aren't objecting to the the position in the bill itself. The objection is to the category of bill, that it determines what can and cannot be taught in schools.

Do you feel this way about every law and regulation determining what is and is not taught in schools? There are tons of them, and I have never seen outrage over their existence or the idea that the state determines what is taught (which I am not comfortable with personally, but that has been an idea very very few have ever shared).

This is my problem with the narratives against it - almost nobody can object to the actual content in the bill, because it's very explicit in every clause about not allowing discrimination between the races and sexes. It is difficult to see what, exactly, the left is so angry about with the bill and why they will not tackle the bill itself but only their media and political narratives. This is a very liberal law banning schools from teaching racism - it just protects all races the same.

EDIT: It doesn't even ban these things from being taught - it just requires that they be taught in an objective manner and not endorsed or advocated as right by the teacher. Lines 79-83.

BobbyStrawberry · #9 02-12-2023, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By signing this legislation, which is the first in the nation to end corporate wokeness and Critical Race Theory in our schools, we are prioritizing education not indoctrination,� said Lieutenant Governor Jeanette Nu�ez. �We will always fight to protect our children and parents from this Marxist-inspired curriculum.�

"Prioritizing education" = preventing kids from learning things. Yale and Harvard -educated RDS is on roll...gearing up for 2024.

1952boyntoncollector · #10 02-12-2023, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By signing this legislation, which is the first in the nation to end corporate wokeness and Critical Race Theory in our schools, we are prioritizing education not indoctrination,” said Lieutenant Governor Jeanette Nu�ez. “We will always fight to protect our children and parents from this Marxist-inspired curriculum.”

So public schools including colleges dont have any issues in preaching one side of the political aisle they are all in the middle.....no reason for any governor to try to combat it guess is what you are saying.....there is no political issues in public schools on young minds i guess is what we are hearing , if there are issues toward political indoctrination, what are the boards suggestions..

AustinMike · #11 02-17-2023, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

...

Here's 51-83 with what it actually doesn't allow instruction of. What part do you think is a problem and want to debate instead of the books that it obviously doesn't ban?

57 3. An individual�s moral character or status as either
58 privileged or oppressed is necessarily determined by his or her
59 race, color, sex, or national origin.

Not banned - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp.

Banned - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp because he is black.

Unclear - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente, who is black, was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp.

Yes, the law allows slavery to be taught and talked about. However, according to the law, not a single person can be said to have been discriminated against because of their skin color. Hence, since the civil war, life has been a bed of roses for black people. According to the law, no black person can be said to have been denied access to hotels, restaurants, etc. solely because of their skin color.

Hence, the potential banning of books about Roberto Clemente, Jackie Robinson, Hank Aaron, etc. Books cannot mention that they were oppressed because their skin color was black.

Cliff Bowman · #12 02-17-2023, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinMike

Not banned - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp.

Banned - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp because he is black.

Unclear - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente, who is black, was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp.

Yes, the law allows slavery to be taught and talked about. However, according to the law, not a single person can be said to have been discriminated against because of their skin color. Hence, since the civil war, life has been a bed of roses for black people. According to the law, no black person can be said to have been denied access to hotels, restaurants, etc. solely because of their skin color.

Hence, the potential banning of books about Roberto Clemente, Jackie Robinson, Hank Aaron, etc. Books cannot mention that they were oppressed because their skin color was black.

Hallelujah, he's back!

BobbyStrawberry · #13 02-17-2023, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinMike

Not banned - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp.

Banned - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp because he is black.

Unclear - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente, who is black, was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp.

Yes, the law allows slavery to be taught and talked about. However, according to the law, not a single person can be said to have been discriminated against because of their skin color. Hence, since the civil war, life has been a bed of roses for black people. According to the law, no black person can be said to have been denied access to hotels, restaurants, etc. solely because of their skin color.

Hence, the potential banning of books about Roberto Clemente, Jackie Robinson, Hank Aaron, etc. Books cannot mention that they were oppressed because their skin color was black.

If there's a silver lining to this, it's that, like the extreme anti-choice laws that some states have put in place, this racist garbage will crash and burn at the national level.

Peter_Spaeth · #14 02-17-2023, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

If there's a silver lining to this, it's that, like the extreme anti-choice laws that some states have put in place, this racist garbage will crash and burn at the national level.

Not a fair equivalence IMO. No decent person is racist. Plenty of decent people are pro-life.

Carter08 · #15 02-17-2023, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinMike

Not banned - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp.

Banned - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp because he is black.

Unclear - While preparing for the upcoming season during spring training in Florida, Roberto Clemente, who is black, was not allowed to stay in many of the hotels near the camp.

Yes, the law allows slavery to be taught and talked about. However, according to the law, not a single person can be said to have been discriminated against because of their skin color. Hence, since the civil war, life has been a bed of roses for black people. According to the law, no black person can be said to have been denied access to hotels, restaurants, etc. solely because of their skin color.

Hence, the potential banning of books about Roberto Clemente, Jackie Robinson, Hank Aaron, etc. Books cannot mention that they were oppressed because their skin color was black.

Spot on.

1952boyntoncollector · #16 02-20-2023, 11:53 AM

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/...ivity-readers/

Peter_Spaeth · #17 02-20-2023, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/...ivity-readers/

The new versions will probably be banned in Florida as too woke.

The world has gone mad today.

What's next, the Bible?

1952boyntoncollector · #18 02-20-2023, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The new versions will probably be banned in Florida as too woke.

The world has gone mad today.

What's next, the Bible?

well Dr. Seuss! It is funny in politics if one side is doing something 90 percent and the other 10 ...the one doing it 90 percent of the time says its on 'both sides

Peter_Spaeth · #19 02-20-2023, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

well Dr. Seuss! It is funny in politics if one side is doing something 90 percent and the other 10 ...the one doing it 90 percent of the time says its on 'both sides

It can only be a matter of time before some of the early Disney animated films are banned, if they are not already.

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