WW3 Please SAY NO!

G1911 · #1 03-04-2023, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Oddly enough, for the same things it is used to treat in horses and cattle

Ivermectin tablets are approved by the FDA to treat people with intestinal strongyloidiasis and onchocerciasis, two conditions caused by parasitic worms. In addition, some topical forms of ivermectin are approved to treat external parasites like head lice and for skin conditions such as rosacea.

Sure didn't see that coming.

Yes, I am very well aware. It is used for both. The media and the left billed it as morons advocating using horse dewormer, which is an intentional lie by omission as they pretended it was crazy to take this commonly used human medication by excising this information. We had multiple people in the Covid thread unaware this was, in fact, commonly prescribed to humans.

bnorth · #2 03-04-2023, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes, I am very well aware. It is used for both. The media and the left billed it as morons advocating using horse dewormer, which is an intentional lie by omission as they pretended it was crazy to take this commonly used human medication by excising this information. We had multiple people in the Covid thread unaware this was, in fact, commonly prescribed to humans.

On a serious post. The stuff you get from a doctor isn't apple flavored and made FOR humans. There is a big difference.

The studies that showed it worked in the recovery of Covid was from 3rd world countries. What it did was kill the parasites in them so their own immune system could fight Covid better.

To be fair I have taken "things" intended for animals as it is higher quality than any vitamin/supplement you will find on ANY store shelf. Everything your dog takes for example that comes from a Vet is tested and has to be of a certain standard. The stuff you buy in a store could be anything and is not regulated.

G1911 · #3 03-04-2023, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

On a serious post. The stuff you get from a doctor isn't apple flavored and made FOR humans. There is a big difference.

The studies that showed it worked in the recovery of Covid was from 3rd world countries. What it did was kill the parasites in them so their own immune system could fight Covid better.

To be fair I have taken "things" intended for animals as it is higher quality than any vitamin/supplement you will find on ANY store shelf. Everything your dog takes for example that comes from a Vet is tested and has to be of a certain standard. The stuff you buy in a store could be anything and is not regulated.

I am not and have never argued that Ivermectin treats Covid. I have no idea if it does, as I�ve said in the Covid thread. It was decided immediately, before any genuine testing, to deride it as horse wormer and dismiss it for humans. A good example of how the media will often lie by telling a small part of the story - the argument wasn�t �after serious and genuine study, we�ve found little connection between Ivermectin and positive Covid outcome rates�, it was �Idiots want you to drink horse dewormer�, which is, of course, a gross mischaracterization. It is horse dewormer, and it commonly prescribed to humans. It is not an animal medication, it is an animal and human medication. Labelled as only for animals and then smeared for this reason was the tactic.

carlsonjok · #4 03-04-2023, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes, I am very well aware. It is used for both. The media and the left billed it as morons advocating using horse dewormer, which is an intentional lie by omission as they pretended it was crazy to take this commonly used human medication by excising this information. We had multiple people in the Covid thread unaware this was, in fact, commonly prescribed to humans.

Man, I hate to break it to you, but emanations from right wing noise machine notwithstanding, it was morons advocating the use of horse dewormer. I couldn't find ivermectin paste for the longest time. And, even today, all dewormers, even those based on fenbendazole or pyrantel pamoate, are kept in a locked cabinet at my local farm store; a privilege previously only enjoyed by guns, ammo, and chainsaw chains.

G1911 · #5 03-04-2023, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Man, I hate to break it to you, but emanations from right wing noise machine notwithstanding, it was morons advocating the use of horse dewormer. I couldn't find ivermectin paste for the longest time. And, even today, all dewormers, even those based on fenbendazole or pyrantel pamoate, are kept in a locked cabinet at my local farm store; a privilege previously only enjoyed by guns, ammo, and chainsaw chains.

I am confident you are well aware the pretense that "horse dewormer" is an accurate description of Ivermectin, which is also for humans and very commonly prescribed to them is political crap.

I disagree with Irv that Ivermectin has been shown to help Covid. I know for a fact this "LOL morons want humans to take horse dewormer" narrative that works by not acknowledging or straight up denying (as some in the Covid thread humorously tried to do) it is a drug for humans is a complete fiction.

I am also aware that most people are just going to parrot whatever their tribe says, no matter how obviously false it is.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 03-04-2023, 02:55 PM

There are countless things in science where the data just isn't conclusive one way or the other, and depending on your point of view, or agenda, you can argue the case either way and cherry pick what supports you. I see this almost every time I research some product or drug claim. Bottom line, when someone offering something touts it as beng evidence-based, don't accept it at face value.

carlsonjok · #7 03-04-2023, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I am confident you are well aware the pretense that "horse dewormer" is an accurate description of Ivermectin, which is also for humans and very commonly prescribed to them is political crap.

Yes, I am aware that it has uses beyond an anti-parasite for livestock. I actually posted where it's use is indicated upthread. I am also aware that very few doctors would actually prescribe it as a COVID treatment.

Which led to an army of mouth breathing dimwits to haul tail to their local Tractor Supply to clear the shelves of Duramectin and Sheep Drench because some conspiracist shock jock told them that the only reason they can't buy it from their local Walgreens is because all those pointy-headed scientists are just part of the New World Order, Agenda 21, Bilderberg financed cabal intent on emptying America of the plain folk of the land in order to turn it into a Marxist utopia where you are assigned an appellation via Random Drag Queen Name Generator and pronouns from a list of 57 options; so head on out to your local Farm and Fleet, save your family's lives and strike a blow for freedumb at the same time! And before you do, please check out our store where 50 pound tubs of Armageddon Rations are 20% for the first 100 buyers!

Some of the above may be hyperbole. Some.

More seriously, I know you want to blame it all on the media finding one random Cletus in Bug Tussle, Missouri eating ivermectin paste. I am a horse owner. As are most of my friends. It wasn't just MSNBC and CNN. It was all over the equestrian media also. And, get this. I was over at ValleyVet.com getting my spring vaccinations and, for giggles, looked at the page for ivermectin wormer. The following disclaimer was in bright red:

COVID-19 ALERT CONCERNING DURVET IVERMECTIN PRODUCTS: WARNING! A number of Durvet products including Duramectin Equine Dewormer, Ivermectin Equine Dewormer, Ivermectin Sheep Drench, Ivermectin Pour On, Ivermectin Injection and Ivermectin Plus Injection contain the anti-parasite ingredient Ivermectin. Despite media reports that Ivermectin could potentially be used to treat people with COVID-19, these products are not safe or approved for human use, which could cause severe personal injury or death.

G1911 · #8 03-04-2023, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Yes, I am aware that it has uses beyond an anti-parasite for livestock. I actually posted where it's use is indicated upthread.

Yes, after a post highlighting that the characterization that ignores its frequent use for humans, and then followed by "it was morons advocating the use of horse dewormer", yet again ignoring that it is not weird for humans to use Ivermectin. As I have said multiple times, I am not convinced that it works, but the mainstream narrative here likes to center around a fiction: that it is stupid for people to use this, completely ignoring it's long history of exactly that before it was decided this was political.

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Which led to an army of mouth breathing dimwits to haul tail to their local Tractor Supply to clear the shelves of Duramectin and Sheep Drench because some conspiracist shock jock told them that the only reason they can't buy it from their local Walgreens is because all those pointy-headed scientists are just part of the New World Order, Agenda 21, Bilderberg financed cabal intent on emptying America of the plain folk of the land in order to turn it into a Marxist utopia where you are assigned an appellation via Random Drag Queen Name Generator and pronouns from a list of 57 options; so head on out to your local Farm and Fleet, save your family's lives and strike a blow for freedumb at the same time! And before you do, please check out our store where 50 pound tubs of Armageddon Rations are 20% for the first 100 buyers!

Some of the above may be hyperbole. Some.

More seriously, I know you want to blame it all on the media finding one random Cletus in Bug Tussle, Missouri eating ivermectin paste. I am a horse owner. As are most of my friends. It wasn't just MSNBC and CNN. It was all over the equestrian media also. And, get this. I was over at ValleyVet.com getting my spring vaccinations and, for giggles, looked at the page for ivermectin wormer. The following disclaimer was in bright red:

COVID-19 ALERT CONCERNING DURVET IVERMECTIN PRODUCTS: WARNING! A number of Durvet products including Duramectin Equine Dewormer, Ivermectin Equine Dewormer, Ivermectin Sheep Drench, Ivermectin Pour On, Ivermectin Injection and Ivermectin Plus Injection contain the anti-parasite ingredient Ivermectin. Despite media reports that Ivermectin could potentially be used to treat people with COVID-19, these products are not safe or approved for human use, which could cause severe personal injury or death.

I find extremist caricatures of leftists by right wingers to always be absurd. So for extremist caricatures of right wingers by leftists. I am not in either camp so there is nothing to say with this; it's just incredibly biased attacks from angry people that are not based in reason. I have never read a reasonable argument that begins by saying anyone who disagrees is a mouth-breathing dimwit.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 03-04-2023, 06:17 PM

I am delighted Matt's wife got better, but it would not take me long to find numerous anecdotes of people who self medicated and had disastrous results. The plural of anecdote is not data. What we need above all else is agenda-free analysis of the best data we can get, to guide rational decisionmaking.

frankbmd · #10 03-04-2023, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am delighted Matt's wife got better, but it would not take me long to find numerous anecdotes of people who self medicated and had disastrous results. The plural of anecdote is not data. What we need above all else is agenda-free analysis of the best data we can get, to guide rational decisionmaking.

Question: How many of Pfizer�s reported studies and data do not support the purported indications for their products?

Answer: The studies reported with invisible ink.

G1911 · #11 03-04-2023, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The plural of anecdote is not data. What we need above all else is agenda-free analysis of the best data we can get, to guide rational decisionmaking.

+1. Objective investigation into datasets is 100% what we are not going to get though.

AustinMike · #12 03-05-2023, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I find extremist caricatures of leftists by right wingers to always be absurd. So for extremist caricatures of right wingers by leftists. I am not in either camp so there is nothing to say with this; it's just incredibly biased attacks from angry people that are not based in reason. I have never read a reasonable argument that begins by saying anyone who disagrees is a mouth-breathing dimwit.

In regards to the section I've put in bold, BS.

G1911 · #13 03-05-2023, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinMike

In regards to the section I've put in bold, BS.

I am, on this exact page, expressing an opinion that does not mesh with either factional narrative about the two issues being discussed, Ivermectin and the war. I forgot that you know me so well, rando stranger.

carlsonjok · #14 03-05-2023, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes, after a post highlighting that the characterization that ignores its frequent use for humans, and then followed by "it was morons advocating the use of horse dewormer", yet again ignoring that it is not weird for humans to use Ivermectin. As I have said multiple times, I am not convinced that it works, but the mainstream narrative here likes to center around a fiction: that it is stupid for people to use this, completely ignoring it's long history of exactly that before it was decided this was political.

You know, it is possible that two things can be true at the same time. It is true that ivermectin is used as an anti-parasite in both humans and animals which I have acknowledged several times (is it too recursive to point out your repeated failure to acknowledge my acknowledgement?) It is also true that there were runs on the livestock versions, forcing retail channels for those products to put any inventory that actually remained under lock and key. Despite the fact that opinions of people who know what they are talking about (doctors and virologists) were overwhelming against the idea, at a minimum until there was at least some definitive proof derived through careful scientific study.

Quote:

I find extremist caricatures of leftists by right wingers to always be absurd. So for extremist caricatures of right wingers by leftists. I am not in either camp so there is nothing to say with this; it's just incredibly biased attacks from angry people that are not based in reason. I have never read a reasonable argument that begins by saying anyone who disagrees is a mouth-breathing dimwit.

Sure. Just a caricature. Totally.

Since your preferred mode of arguing is to focus on the premise rather than the conclusion, then setting up a strawman which you deftly knock down, I will say this: Yes, one of the articles calls it horse medicine. The point here (read this closely) is that right wing media personalities with wide audiences were pushing ivermectin as a cure for COVID. And a large number of people acted on that, contrary to the best available scientific evidence and medical advice. If calling stupid people stupid offends you, what would an above-it-all, latter day Cicero such as yourself (note: this is also hyperbole) call them? This isn't the Roman Senate or even the Macneil-Lehrer NewsHour. This is a chat board for people who collect pictures of athletes printed on cardboard. We're supposed to be having fun here.

If I thought you were actually engaging in good faith, I'd tell you about my farrier (that is a person who trims hooves and shoes horses) who is the living embodiment of most of the stereotypes that offend you so. I see you using the same logical fallacies that you used over in the book banning thread. So, we are definitely in "shame on me" territory here. So, taking the advice I was given but ignored, the last word is yours.

G1911 · #15 03-05-2023, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

You know, it is possible that two things can be true at the same time. It is true that ivermectin is used as an anti-parasite in both humans and animals which I have acknowledged several times (is it too recursive to point out your repeated failure to acknowledge my acknowledgement?) It is also true that there were runs on the livestock versions, forcing retail channels for those products to put any inventory that actually remained under lock and key. Despite the fact that opinions of people who know what they are talking about (doctors and virologists) were overwhelming against the idea, at a minimum until there was at least some definitive proof derived through careful scientific study.

Sure. Just a caricature. Totally.

Since your preferred mode of arguing is to focus on the premise rather than the conclusion, then setting up a strawman which you deftly knock down, I will say this: Yes, one of the articles calls it horse medicine. The point here (read this closely) is that right wing media personalities with wide audiences were pushing ivermectin as a cure for COVID. And a large number of people acted on that, contrary to the best available scientific evidence and medical advice. If calling stupid people stupid offends you, what would an above-it-all, latter day Cicero such as yourself (note: this is also hyperbole) call them? This isn't the Roman Senate or even the Macneil-Lehrer NewsHour. This is a chat board for people who collect pictures of athletes printed on cardboard. We're supposed to be having fun here.

If I thought you were actually engaging in good faith, I'd tell you about my farrier (that is a person who trims hooves and shoes horses) who is the living embodiment of most of the stereotypes that offend you so. I see you using the same logical fallacies that you used over in the book banning thread. So, we are definitely in "shame on me" territory here. So, taking the advice I was given but ignored, the last word is yours.

Yes. A conclusion should be drawn from reasoned and true premises. This is exactly why we will never find common ground. I think conclusions should be rooted in premises, and you reject the root concept that form the logical method. I will, for the second time, leave the personal insults to you to make. We all have our ways of thinking.