WTB Hal Chase S74 silks

[realbigfatdog]

Originally Posted by BobC

Good luck on the search, and great collection of Chase silks. Are you only looking for graded silks, and how condition sensitive are you?

As for a Helmar backed Chase, don't even bother. My understanding is there are only something like 3 known Helmar backed silks in the world, and 2 of the 3 are Cobbs, and both owned by Net54 members. I've never heard or seen the 3rd Helmar silk and who the player is, and couldn't tell you when and how it last changed hands. And on top of there supposedly only being 1 more Helmar backed silk in existence, you then have about a 1 in 85 chance it is of Chase and not someone else. Red Suns aren't as impossible as Helmar backed silks, but still extremely rare. I've not heard of or seen a Red Sun backed Chase myself, and the SGC pop reports show they've graded no Red Sun - Chase silks. There's a good chance that no Red Sun - Chases even exist, but you may get lucky and find an ungraded one someday.

Also thought I'd let you know there is one more white silk advertising back you may be able to find. It is a second Turkey Red back variation that has a solid, single line black border going around outside the printing on the back. You can see what it looks like if you go to this site - S74silk.com, and look on the "WHITE SILKS S74-1" page.

Question for you on your two ad-backed Chase silks that SGC only graded as "Authentic". They automatically grade all white version silks with no attached backing as just "A", but typically give any with backing still attached a numerical grade. So, any idea why your 2 ad-backed Chase silks only got an "A" grade?

Thanks for the info, Bob! I'm not crazy-condition sensitive, but I wouldn't want any that were super frayed, either. I dont need them graded (I can submit them myself), just looking to get as many different as I can. I'll be in the lookout for the turkey red back variant now, too.

As far as the graded whites, the brown ink A is only about half attached to the backing. I actually had to submit it two times before they would slab it. I'm assuming the blue ink A got it's grade due to a little bit of excessive fraying. The back is firm on that one all the way around.

Thanks again for the info. Hopefully a Red Sun will pop up for sale someday, too.

Mike

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[BobC]

Originally Posted by realbigfatdog

Thanks for the info, Bob! I'm not crazy-condition sensitive, but I wouldn't want any that were super frayed, either. I dont need them graded (I can submit them myself), just looking to get as many different as I can. I'll be in the lookout for the turkey red back variant now, too.

As far as the graded whites, the brown ink A is only about half attached to the backing. I actually had to submit it two times before they would slab it. I'm assuming the blue ink A got it's grade due to a little bit of excessive fraying. The back is firm on that one all the way around.

Thanks again for the info. Hopefully a Red Sun will pop up for sale someday, too.

Mike

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Thanks Mike, can understand their concern if the backing was coming off. Though I doubt anyone could try and fake an S74 silk, I can definitely see someone taking the backing off the silk off a common player, and then maybe trying to re-attach it to a more famous player and HOFer, like Cobb. Can also then see SGC viewing a partially attached back as a suspected attempt to re-back a silk, and thus technically make it an alteration, deserving of an "A" grade. But if that was the original backing that brown ink Chase silk came with, and after more than a century it finally started to come a little loose, it isn't really fair to whoever submitted it to automatically hit it with an "A" grade IMO. But I guess if SGC can't really tell the difference, it probably is best to err on the side of caution as opposed to accepting an altered item.

However, if the other, blue ink, Chase silk did have the backing still solidly attached, even with excessive fraying it would/should still get a numerical grade. Unless whoever submitted it had requested it be authenticated only, with no numerical grade assigned. Otherwise, there had to be something else SGC found to only let them give it an "A" grade. Can't really tell from your scanned image, but if I could see it in person maybe something else would jump out. Otherwise, looks like a typical, solid "3" grade silk to me. I'll take a look and let you know if I have any extra Chase silks you might be looking for.

[ricktmd]

Hello. That is a nice group of Chase silks. I believe Ed Hans a board member here may have an S74-2 Chase you need.
https://t206.monkberry.com/webpics/s74cha.jpg

On Chase, I own 2 S74-1 Silks one with red ink and one with brown both TR. In the S74-2 silks I own 2 as well. One with red ink and one with blue and one OM and one TR.
As far as the Helmar silks when I started the S74Silk.com website with help from Bob C. RSST (another board member) and the data from auction houses. We came up with a total of 9 Helmar Silks known on a master spread sheet. I own one attached, its Camnitz. I also had purchased a Wolter Helmar from a dealer only to receive a Turkey Red back with an explanation he had sold the Helmar, although it was live on his site. RSST beat me to the Wolter I came to find out.

As far as SGC grading of silks I am quite critical of their grading of silks on the S74Silk website as they are inconsistent. They grade based on creasing with little regard to fraying. They will give an A to any silk that doesn't measure exactly what is outlined in the Krause Standard Catalogue. Your A graded white silks deserve a numerical grade in my opinion. If you look at the grading page on the site the comparisons are quite revealing. I have over 500 silks and they vary in size. Even though a silk is not trimmed and just slightly off size from Standard Catalogues dimensions SGC chokes on grading these. The S74-2 have several that are taller and narrow and some short and wider. SGC set criteria and are living with it even though most silk collectors are shocked by numerical grades of silks where the ad is actually frayed off.

Anyone can iron out a crease on an S74-2 but fraying is irreversible. Im not sure CSG is any better is I only own one of their graded silks (a Chase ironically). Beckett and formerly GAI seemed to be more in line with what you would expect and what is reasonable. Only if and when PSA starts to grade these will we potentially have reasonable parameters. I actually like silks because the grading really doesn't matter and doesn't effect pricing the way it does with cards.

Best of Luck

[rsst206]

Hi Mike
I have this one
Ron

[realbigfatdog]

Originally Posted by ricktmd

Hello. That is a nice group of Chase silks. I believe Ed Hans a board member here may have an S74-2 Chase you need.
https://t206.monkberry.com/webpics/s74cha.jpg

On Chase, I own 2 S74-1 Silks one with red ink and one with brown both TR. In the S74-2 silks I own 2 as well. One with red ink and one with blue and one OM and one TR.
As far as the Helmar silks when I started the S74Silk.com website with help from Bob C. RSST (another board member) and the data from auction houses. We came up with a total of 9 Helmar Silks known on a master spread sheet. I own one attached, its Camnitz. I also had purchased a Wolter Helmar from a dealer only to receive a Turkey Red back with an explanation he had sold the Helmar, although it was live on his site. RSST beat me to the Wolter I came to find out.

As far as SGC grading of silks I am quite critical of their grading of silks on the S74Silk website as they are inconsistent. They grade based on creasing with little regard to fraying. They will give an A to any silk that doesn't measure exactly what is outlined in the Krause Standard Catalogue. Your A graded white silks deserve a numerical grade in my opinion. If you look at the grading page on the site the comparisons are quite revealing. I have over 500 silks and they vary in size. Even though a silk is not trimmed and just slightly off size from Standard Catalogues dimensions SGC chokes on grading these. The S74-2 have several that are taller and narrow and some short and wider. SGC set criteria and are living with it even though most silk collectors are shocked by numerical grades of silks where the ad is actually frayed off.

Anyone can iron out a crease on an S74-2 but fraying is irreversible. Im not sure CSG is any better is I only own one of their graded silks (a Chase ironically). Beckett and formerly GAI seemed to be more in line with what you would expect and what is reasonable. Only if and when PSA starts to grade these will we potentially have reasonable parameters. I actually like silks because the grading really doesn't matter and doesn't effect pricing the way it does with cards.

Best of Luck

Thanks! I will check out Ed's website. I've bought a few Chase cards from him before. If you'd like to sell your white red ink silk, let me know. I'd love to upgrade. Thanks for the additional info.

Mike

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[realbigfatdog]

Originally Posted by BobC

Thanks Mike, can understand their concern if the backing was coming off. Though I doubt anyone could try and fake an S74 silk, I can definitely see someone taking the backing off the silk off a common player, and then maybe trying to re-attach it to a more famous player and HOFer, like Cobb. Can also then see SGC viewing a partially attached back as a suspected attempt to re-back a silk, and thus technically make it an alteration, deserving of an "A" grade. But if that was the original backing that brown ink Chase silk came with, and after more than a century it finally started to come a little loose, it isn't really fair to whoever submitted it to automatically hit it with an "A" grade IMO. But I guess if SGC can't really tell the difference, it probably is best to err on the side of caution as opposed to accepting an altered item.



However, if the other, blue ink, Chase silk did have the backing still solidly attached, even with excessive fraying it would/should still get a numerical grade. Unless whoever submitted it had requested it be authenticated only, with no numerical grade assigned. Otherwise, there had to be something else SGC found to only let them give it an "A" grade. Can't really tell from your scanned image, but if I could see it in person maybe something else would jump out. Otherwise, looks like a typical, solid "3" grade silk to me. I'll take a look and let you know if I have any extra Chase silks you might be looking for.

Hey Bob, yeah, I could kinda see why they gave the one with the half-attached backing an "A" grade (and I did need to submit it two times because they sent it back unslabbed the first), but I was a little annoyed with the blue ink when it returned to me (yes, I subbed it myself) with an authentic grade, even though the back was firmly attached. I thought it deserved at least a 1. Honestly though, I just wanted it in a tux, as about 98% of my Hal Chase collection is in SGC holders. It keeps my display uniform, and I'm anal about that, lol. I will say, however, that SGC is wildly inconsistent when they grade these. And it's also odd that with all of the sets (pre war specifically) that they no longer grade, they still grade these, though I'm not complaining!

Mike

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[BobC]

Originally Posted by realbigfatdog

Hey Bob, yeah, I could kinda see why they gave the one with the half-attached backing an "A" grade (and I did need to submit it two times because they sent it back unslabbed the first), but I was a little annoyed with the blue ink when it returned to me (yes, I subbed it myself) with an authentic grade, even though the back was firmly attached. I thought it deserved at least a 1. Honestly though, I just wanted it in a tux, as about 98% of my Hal Chase collection is in SGC holders. It keeps my display uniform, and I'm anal about that, lol. I will say, however, that SGC is wildly inconsistent when they grade these. And it's also odd that with all of the sets (pre war specifically) that they no longer grade, they still grade these, though I'm not complaining!

Mike

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Hey Mile,

I'm guessing that SGC may be cracking down in their grading of these somehow if they only gave you an "A" on that blue ink, ad-backed Chase silk. In looking at it I can't see any reason it shouldn't at least deserve a 1, or even a slightly higher grade. At least they do still grade them. PSA has never graded them, and SGC basically had them all to themselves. Beckett did grade them, not sure they still do, but only seen a very few S74 silks in their holders. CSG now does grade the silks as well, but their pop reports show only a very small few, less than 10, have been graded in total. Honestly don't believe there is much of an interest in people sending in S74 silks to grade anymore, other than a few rare occasions like yours, where you do so more for the consistency in your collection than anything else. Just wish they could decide and settle on one uniform, consistent standard in grading them then, and maybe quit treating them the same as actual cards in terms of grading. They are a satin material and not actual cards, even with the paper backing on some. LOL

Sorry about my erroneous info regarding the number of possible Helmar backed cards out there. When I mentioned three being known I was basing that off a Heritage auction description I had seen, and forgot about some additional Helmar silks being found by other since then. Check the auction lot description in the link below. Regardless, they are still so rare, your chances of finding a Chase version are still close to nil.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/e...umbnail-071515

Haven't had a chance to see what Chase silks I may have extras of. Will see if I can be of any help in your chase for Chase. LOL

[realbigfatdog]

Originally Posted by BobC

Hey Mile,

I'm guessing that SGC may be cracking down in their grading of these somehow if they only gave you an "A" on that blue ink, ad-backed Chase silk. In looking at it I can't see any reason it shouldn't at least deserve a 1, or even a slightly higher grade. At least they do still grade them. PSA has never graded them, and SGC basically had them all to themselves. Beckett did grade them, not sure they still do, but only seen a very few S74 silks in their holders. CSG now does grade the silks as well, but their pop reports show only a very small few, less than 10, have been graded in total. Honestly don't believe there is much of an interest in people sending in S74 silks to grade anymore, other than a few rare occasions like yours, where you do so more for the consistency in your collection than anything else. Just wish they could decide and settle on one uniform, consistent standard in grading them then, and maybe quit treating them the same as actual cards in terms of grading. They are a satin material and not actual cards, even with the paper backing on some. LOL

Sorry about my erroneous info regarding the number of possible Helmar backed cards out there. When I mentioned three being known I was basing that off a Heritage auction description I had seen, and forgot about some additional Helmar silks being found by other since then. Check the auction lot description in the link below. Regardless, they are still so rare, your chances of finding a Chase version are still close to nil.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/e...umbnail-071515

Haven't had a chance to see what Chase silks I may have extras of. Will see if I can be of any help in your chase for Chase. LOL

Thanks, I appreciate that Bob!

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